UK cast policy

Delenn wrote:
I know there's been a policy change in regards to UK shows and the way cast are credited... But it's worded in such a way that doesn't draw attention to the different conventions as regards to how UK shows approach title credits vs. end credits. Putting an actor in the opening credits of UK shows does not automatically denote them as 'main cast', which seems to already be causing confusion as to how things are listed.
For example: http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/1014738/midsomer-murders-19x03-last-man-out/castappearances, tonight's episode of Midsomer Murders... Yes, technically all those people are in the opening section of credits, but only Hughes, Dudgeon and Hendrix are considered 'main cast' (if you watch the title credits, they're actually subtly sectioned into 2 groups).
Although some of the cast listed in the title credits are recurring (Dolman and Virk), the rest are single episode cast. But UK convention dictates they go in the opening credits because they're the main players in that particular episode, they're not 'main cast' as TVMaze would define that role. For shows like Midsomer (and off the top of my head, Death in Paradise), this would lead to hundreds of characters being listed as 'main cast', which is just wildly inaccurate. For this example in particular, ONLY Hughes, Dudgeon and Hendrix are considered the 'main cast', all the others belong in guest cast.
So, although I understand what the new change policy is trying to convey, it's not conveying it all that well, especially for people who aren't familiar with difference in UK title/credit conventions and their differences from say, North American conventions. You can't just say all main cast are listed in opening titles, because guest cast deemed particularly important to each individual episode are often listed there as well.

Just to be clear I added the cast to the episode and I'm from the UK. I agreed with the policy as did other members of staff before it was decided upon. The policy is based on the BBC's way of handling cast and sort of makes sense, or else we are making up our own rules for every single UK show that airs that doesn't make it clear who's a star and who isn't: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/site/Opening_and_closing_Credits.pdf

The BBC and ITV are splitting the cast in the opening credits away from those in the closing credits for a reason. This seems to be the only logical reason as to why, regardless of whether they appear in 100's of episodes or 2 or 3, the cast is hired as a star for that episode.

TomSouthwell wrote:

Just to be clear I added the cast to the episode and I'm from the UK. I agreed with the policy as did other members of staff before it was decided upon. The policy is based on the BBC's way of handling cast and sort of makes sense, or else we are making up our own rules for every single UK show that airs that doesn't make it clear who's a star and who isn't: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/site/Opening_and_closing_Credits.pdf
The BBC and ITV are splitting the cast in the opening credits away from those in the closing credits for a reason. This seems to be the only logical reason as to why, regardless of whether they appear in 100's of episodes or 2 or 3, the cast is hired as a star for that episode.

I absolutely see what you're saying, and why you came to the conclusion you came to as staff. I didn't mean to suggest it hadn't been discussed before the decision was made, obviously I assumed you guys had done that in one way or another. However, I do disagree with your conclusions.

You're essentially going to end up with a main cast page containing hundreds, if not thousands of 'main cast', whilst making no distinction between regular cast and cast who are in one episode. It's technically, not incorrect, but it's (in my opinion obviously) also... A bit illogical? The way the BBC uses opening titles does not directly translate into the way TVMaze has organised itself. It's not about making up rules for every single UK show, it's a question of looking at how the structure of TVMaze can best represent accurate information and making sensible executive decisions. Listing every actor from a Midsomer opening title sequence is going to make this page http://www.tvmaze.com/shows/328/midsomer-murders/cast, completely unrenderable, given the length of the series and the regularity of actors only appearing once. I'm not saying the conclusion you've drawn is technically incorrect, by your application of policy, it's not. I only question whether there's any actual logic to it, given the structure of TVMaze's database.

Plus, and I only noticed this myself last week, if you go and watch the opening credits of say, Midsomer (since we're using that as an example here), the credits go 'Starring Neil Dudgeon' [screen change] 'with Nick Hendrix' [extended break over a continous shot of something or other] then other actors listed alpabetically, usually 3 to a page. There is clearly an onscreen distinction/grouping there. Dungeon & Hendrix get their own screen preceeded by 'Starring' and after a slightly longer onscreen pause, everyone else is listed 3 to page in alpabetical order, regardless of their importance to the plot. If we're considering onscreen information to be a reliable source, you can't ignore that ITV have made this onscreen distinction, however subtle it might be.

(Also, I didn't intend for this to be such a big thing when I first mentioned it, so apologies that it's all gotten a bit wordy.)

I moved your posts out of Edit Requests to a separate thread. Edit Requests is ment for simple requests; for more complicated matters like these feel more than free to start a new thread.

One key point about the rule is that it only applies if there's not a single other source distinguishing Main Cast from Guest Cast. If the on-screen credits, the official site or a press release specify whether a role is Main or Guest, that has priority over this rule.

With that in mind, can you still think of any shows that would be problematic?

The on screen graphics to my knowledge displayed starring for this show but didn't split the cast into two groups as described above, in fact the cast appear over 4 or 5 different screens in the opening credits.

david wrote:
I moved your posts out of Edit Requests to a separate thread. Edit Requests is ment for simple requests; for more complicated matters like these feel more than free to start a new thread.
One key point about the rule is that it only applies if there's not a single other source distinguishing Main Cast from Guest Cast. If the on-screen credits, the official site or a press release specify whether a role is Main or Guest, that has priority over this rule.
With that in mind, can you still think of any shows that would be problematic?

As me and Tony said in the original discussion each show has different ways of doing things. We discussed for example 'The Halycon', with this show theres a huge list of names appearing in the opening credits, then not one of these people are credited in the end credits, unless you watch the show you wouldn't know who's playing who. The end credits instead have (at least for episode 2) one page of 'Also Starring' which appears on-screen. This is a ITV show.

ITV then air 'Midsomer Murders' and do a similar thing - listing the majority of the stars in the opening titles and then listing the guest cast at the end, the only difference here is that there's no 'Also Starring' text at the top of the screen when the guest stars appear.

Channel 4's 'No Offence' lists starring cast first on the end credits, with no cast mentioned in the opening credits, now with this show for episode 1 guest stars from the first series appear as starring in episode 1 of series 2, but didn't appear in last night's episode. There's no accreditation for the section for the stars in the credits, but there is accreditation for the Guest Stars.

I've added screengrabs of the opening and closing credits of 'Midsomer Murders'

http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/1014738/midsomer-murders-19x03-last-man-out/gallery

TomSouthwell wrote:
I've added screengrabs of the opening and closing credits of 'Midsomer Murders'
http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/1014738/midsomer-murders-19x03-last-man-out/gallery

Firstly, thanks for sperating this out from the main edit thread David, I hadn't realised it was going to be such a lengthy discussion when I first brought it up. :)

Second, thanks for the screengrabs Tom, it's not something I was in a position to do. However, I would argue that it also kind of supports my point. Dudgeon and Hendrix clearly have their own screens, and are not subjected to the same alphabetisation (is that even a word?) as the second tier of cast members. They are clearly, I would argue, presented as being distinct and seperate to the rest of the cast. One thing the the grabs don't show, is the difference in passage of time between the 2 credit groups; the break between Dudgeon and Hendrix's screen is short, the break before the 3-to-a-page guest cast is longer. Admittedly, it's not by much, but it is there. Ultimately, I would argue that the very fact that Dudgeon and Hendrix get their own screen differentiates them from the other cast members, it puts them at a different level. Honestly, is anyone really arguing here that Inspector Barnaby & Relevant Sidekick are at the same level of cast as the weekly guest stars?

Given than UK shows demonstrate such a range of, often quite odd, crediting methods, I think my main issue is that this appears, from my perspective, to be a blanket policy change to UK shows that fails to consider that many UK shows do need to be considered on a case by case basis. Applying a blanket policy, whilst is might appear to simplify things, arguablely overrides common sense in some cases. It's not hard to differentiate, in the majority of cases, who qualifies as 'main cast' and who is a guest star. You can essentially still 'star' in something, as a guest. Obviously there's some things that are open to discussion, like we're having now; however, I still think the wording of the policy implies and enforces a conformity to UK opening/closing crediting systems that doesn't exist, some times you need to use human interpretation to make the best decision, rather than the mechanics of the situation... Does that make sense? Tom is clearly arguing that the 2 main characters in Midsomer, who appear every week and are integral to the show as a whole... Be listed on TVMaze at the same level as the random character who might have been in the murderer 7 seasons ago... I'm sorry, but honestly, that just doesn't make sense. It's not remotely an accurate representation of the show and who is in it. Realistically speaking, the characters who are 'main' are often easily infered from the structure of a show, and the publicity surrounding a show, even when the sporadic (and iffy) press releases/official websites for UK shows don't use the same technical wording as TVMaze does.

From a purely practical position, rendering the cast appearances page for a show like Midsomer, if you catagorise cast in this way, is going to cause an immense loading problem in the long term. There will literally be hundreds of entries, and it will likely become so problematic to load for some people, it will essentially become a pointless page.

Annnnnnd, that ended up being a lot longer than I intended. Fundamentally, I think there has to be an exercise of common sense on a show by show basis, especially when the credits are less than straight forward; rather than the a definitive policy on the subject. Especially given the way the current new policy focuses on the primacy of opening credits, without considering their complexity in UK shows.

In addition, although it's for an episode for an earlier season, I would like to draw attention to this: http://www.itv.com/documents/doc/darkrider1.doc, on TVMaze, it's this episode: http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/31844/midsomer-murders-15x01-the-dark-rider

That press document from ITV clearly lists 'stars' and 'guest stars', the guest stars listed here are in the opening credits of their respective episode. This document would dispute that all those who appear in opening titles are considered (by TVMaze's catagorization) 'main cast'; they are internally considering to be 'guest stars'. So yes, guest stars can still be in the opening credits, but they should not be automatically listed as MAIN cast pureply by default of being there. The structure of this document infers there are main stars, recurring stars (not explicitely stated, but they get their own paragraph and are discussed seperately from guest stars), then guest stars.

Yes/no?

Edited to Add: There's also a press pack for Jason Hughes' final episode as sidekick, which although more focuses on Jason Hughes' exit, it does clearly reference stars and guest stars in this manner: http://www.itv.com/presscentre/press-packs/midsome...

Delenn wrote:
Tom is clearly arguing that the 2 main characters in Midsomer, who appear every week and are integral to the show as a whole... Be listed on TVMaze at the same level as the random character who might have been in the murderer 7 seasons ago... I'm sorry, but honestly, that just doesn't make sense. It's not remotely an accurate representation of the show and who is in it. Realistically speaking, the characters who are 'main' are often easily infered from the structure of a show, and the publicity surrounding a show, even when the sporadic (and iffy) press releases/official websites for UK shows don't use the same technical wording as TVMaze does.

I'm not arguing that point. My role as head contributor is to put into place the policies we have, if I'm told this is a policy then that's the policy we follow. The point I've made time and time again in both this discussion and the past discussion in the staff forums is that each show will show cast in whichever way they want and that could even differ sometimes from series to series. For there to even be guidelines from the BBC makes no sense to me when they have a number of shows that don't follow that policy either. The reason we have to have a policy is the fact that we have iffy and sporadic press releases and official websites. However again referring back to policy:

http://www.tvmaze.com/faq/14/show-extras

In some cases, there might be multiple sources that conflict with each other. When that happens, they should be considered in the following order:

Data shown on-screen during the show's announcement, intro, or credits

Data in a press release or press kit

Data on the show's official website

Statements by show crew in articles / interviews

Please note that IMDB should never be used as a source for Cast information, as they don't properly separate show-level credits from episode-level credits.

Delenn wrote:
In addition, although it's for an episode for an earlier season, I would like to draw attention to this: http://www.itv.com/documents/doc/darkrider1.doc, on TVMaze, it's this episode: http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/31844/midsomer-murders-15x01-the-dark-rider
That press document from ITV clearly lists 'stars' and 'guest stars', the guest stars listed here are in the opening credits of their respective episode. This document would dispute that all those who appear in opening titles are considered (by TVMaze's catagorization) 'main cast'; they are internally considering to be 'guest stars'. So yes, guest stars can still be in the opening credits, but they should not be automatically listed as MAIN cast pureply by default of being there. The structure of this document infers there are main stars, recurring stars (not explicitely stated, but they get their own paragraph and are discussed seperately from guest stars), then guest stars.
Yes/no?

Referring to a document from 2012 in 2017 in my opinion is pointless when this: http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep3week2/midsomer-murders is what we have to refer to for current episodes. There's no cast information there, so we'd go back to policy and use on-screen data. If I had that information ahead of time for the new episodes, then yes I would be using it unless the on-screen data differed.

TomSouthwell wrote:
Referring to a document from 2012 in 2017 in my opinion is pointless when this: http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep3week2/midsomer-murders is what we have to refer to for current episodes. There's no cast information there, so we'd go back to policy and use on-screen data.

Fair enough, but I would still argue that there's an onscreen distinction between Dudgeon and Hendrix, vs the the rest of the cast.

& despite the time difference in documents, that doesn't invalidate them as an official sort of information. It *is* a press release from an official source, as is the second one I posted, the fact that 2 official documents, regardless of date, make a guest star distinction infers that there is one to be had. If anything, it supports my argument about the onscreen distinction. Here there is both a distinction onscreen and a precedent inofficial ITV documentation. They compliment each other, they don't conflict with each other.

I think, while you see the iffy nature of UK information as indication as a need for blanket policy, my arguement that it indicates the need for careful and logical application of thought, and not a blanket statement. I'm not arguing your enforcement of a policy, that's your job, I'm arguing the fundamental nature of that policy as it currently exists. There should surely be room in any policy to bend as needs/common sense would allow?

Delenn wrote:
Fair enough, but I would still argue that there's an onscreen distinction between Dudgeon and Hendrix, vs the the rest of the cast.
& despite the time difference in documents, that doesn't invalidate them as an official sort of information. It *is* a press release from an official source, as is the second one I posted, the fact that 2 official documents, regardless of date, make a guest star distinction infers that there is one to be had. If anything, it supports my argument about the onscreen distinction. Here there is both a distinction onscreen and a precedent inofficial ITV documentation. They compliment each other, they don't conflict with each other.
I think, while you see the iffy nature of UK information as indication as a need for blanket policy, my arguement that it indicates the need for careful and logical application of thought, and not a blanket statement. I'm not arguing your enforcement of a policy, that's your job, I'm arguing the fundamental nature of that policy as it currently exists. There should surely be room in any policy to bend as needs/common sense would allow?

But onscreen data would trump the press release as it states in the policy available on every page of the site. Yes there's a distinction and that distinction is that the cast members are shown on separate screens, that's the only distinction in my opinion. 'Starring' is Neil Dudgeon, he's the main character, the other stars in that episode come under 'With' if we're going to move all the cast members who appear after 'With' then that should include Nick Hendrix as well. ITV are purposely putting the guest cast in the opening credits, or else every cast member who appears in the end credits would also appear in the opening credits as well.

It's also worth noting that the decision that on-screen data trumps press releases was around way before the UK policy was introduced.

TomSouthwell wrote:
It's also worth noting that the decision that on-screen data trumps press releases was around way before the UK policy was introduced.

Not disagreeing. I'm not attempting to say the press data should trump the onscreen data, I'm saying the available press data supports that there is a distinction on screen. You yourself just admitted that although the distinction is only that they get their own screen, outside of the alpahbetisation system for the rest, that is still an onscreen distinction. The press data SUPPORTS the onscreen distinction I'm arguing for, I'musing it to suppliment the existence of a distinction.

So, while it does say 'Starring Neil Dudgeon' & 'with Nick Hendrix', it implies that Hendrix is starring WITH Dudgeon. The visual reordering of cast onscreen at this point, whilst not saying 'guest star' is implicit in the very fact that it's distinctly differently arranged from Dudgeon and Hendrix's screens. I'm using the press release to support my argument that the onscreen distinction (which you yourself admit exists and should be adheared to according to long established policty), albeit subtle and requiring a level of inference, does exist. Even though the words aren't there, the distinction is, and other official information supports that.

I don't know if it's the same for Midsomer but at least for Death in Paradise which is mentioned in the first post, their official Facebook posts episodephotos of the one off cast clearly calling them guest cast eventhough they may be credited onscreen after the cast that is considered main cast so seems very likely that it's the same for Midsomer. Have to agree that it sounds and look wrong to me to add everyone as main if they are credited before the show, seems much more correct that you have the main then a pause of a few seconds before the credits of guess cast and after the episode is co-stars

After reading all of this, Delenn and MTQueenie are making some points I was not aware of (I also said yes to the new policy).

If there are press releases that distinguish main and guest cast, we should take those into account too somehow. I also think Delenn has a good point, that the cast list on a show like Midsomers will have hundreds of entries, which seems odd to be honest.

On the other hand, also US shows do not show all cast members the same way in their opening credits. The two main stars can easily get their own screen, while the rest of the cast members are shown in pairs. If I follow Delenn's point on this, it would mean only the first two are "really" main cast members, which would be false in that example.

This is really not an easy thing, with short running shows this is all not ahuge issue, but with really long running shows the cast list will get insanely huge.

I can understand both sides completely, but we have to do it one way and right now we have decided to make that policy, but everything is open for discussion I think if valid points are made and right now some valid points are made.

Current episodes don't have these press releases, that's why I'm saying Delenns point of using that release may stand for those episodes, but they are from 2012, not 2017.

TomSouthwell wrote:
Current episodes don't have these press releases, that's why I'm saying Delenns point of using that release may stand for those episodes, but they are from 2012, not 2017.

Yes, I agree, but overall this is a very messy situation :)

JuanArango wrote:

Yes, I agree, but overall this is a very messy situation :)

It most definitely is, although I'm happy we're having a civil discussion about it. I think given the complexities of the situation, it's definitely something that needs contuned discussion, given that the problems presented themselves almost immediately. I completely get that the policy has been set for now, but if there's a problem, it should be able to bend enough to incorporate shows that aren't best served under a blanket one size fits all policy.

I think it boils down to, with some UK shows, like Midsomer (since that's the one we've largely been focusing our discussion around), you can't really use onscreen opening credits as the only one size fits all method for determining who is a main star and who is a guest star. Guest stars get put in the opening creditsof a lot of UK shows, that's a fact, and I honestly don't think anyone here is arguing that it's often very easy (as a viewer) to determine who is main and who is guest. Therefore, to best represent this information, on a case by case basis someone is going to have to not only look at the onscreen data, but also look at what's available press release wise (even if it's dated, it provides a correlating piece of official information to existing onscreen distinctions, and gives insight into how MM most-likely still makes internal cast distinctions), combine that with what's available in terms of other promotional material; and then make an informed, common-sense decision on how TVMaze can best represent that information within its structure.

MTQueenie is correct is saying that the BBC's Death in Paradise does something similiar with its guest stars. Yes, they are in the opening credits for their respective episodes, but *all* other official documentation and available information presents them as guest stars. So, again, in this case, an application of all available information should be considered to come to a logical conclusion, not just an automatic default to the supremacy of opening credits. Much like Midsomer, if we list them as the new policy suggests, as the show runs longer, the cast list page is more or less going to become redundant and problematic.

Again, this is obviously very messy, but I don't think it's unreasonable to continue civilised discussion about the implementation of this new policy and whether, moving forward, it might require further consideration. :)

If we don't credit them as show stars, we definitely need a different section to add these cast members under, the networks are seperating them from the rest of the guest cast for a reason.