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Two part episode policy

eterfgf wrote 5 years ago: 1

I just wish you remove this dumbest "two part episode" rule that only cause chaos and confusion.

Just stick to the goddamn wiki, if it says "Pilot (1)" and "Pilot (2)" - do two separate entries.

Many thanks. :) :) :)

eterfgf wrote 5 years ago: 1

Now let me explain my point a little bit better. I'm watching Monk for example. Everywhere I go says that the show have 13 episodes in first season and 125 in total. IMDB, Wiki, even the official episode guide. But not here, thanks to that rule for ruin the order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Monk_episodes

Another more recent example is You're The Worst. Every season (since season 2) have 13 episodes and 62 in total. That's how every person will count them. But you decided to mold first episodes of season 4 into one. Why? They have different production number and different IMDB links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_You%27re_the_Worst_episodes#Season_4_(2017)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6186046/

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6986142/

I also keep an eye for some old lesser-known shows and I'm really frustrated because someone might come and "fixed it" your way.

Note that DVD numbering should never be considered.

That's also interesting part. Because that rule is basically doing the order of the DVD, not official network order.

I hope you will consider this changes. Thank you :))))))))


JuanArango wrote 5 years ago: 1

eterfgf wrote:
Now let me explain my point a little bit better. I'm watching Monk for example. Everywhere I go says that the show have 13 episodes in first season and 125 in total. IMDB, Wiki, even the official episode guide. But not here, thanks to that rule for ruin the order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Monk_episodes

Another more recent example is You're The Worst. Every season (since season 2) have 13 episodes and 62 in total. That's how every person will count them. But you decided to mold first episodes of season 4 into one. Why? They have different production number and different IMDB links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_You%27re_the_Worst_episodes#Season_4_(2017)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6186046/

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6986142/

I also keep an eye for some old lesser-known shows and I'm really frustrated because someone might come and "fixed it" your way.

That's also interesting part. Because that rule is basically doing the order of the DVD, not official network order.

I hope you will consider this changes. Thank you :))))))))

The You're the Worst episode was aired as one episode with one writer and one director and no separate cast list or crew list. That is the reason for listing it as one episode :)

deleted wrote 5 years ago: 1

bungle wrote:
- please consider adding genres to the 'import show' and 'request a show' pages.

many thanks. :)

You should open a new suggestion tab for that. :)

eterfgf wrote 5 years ago: 1

JuanArango wrote:
The You're the Worst episode was aired as one episode with one writer and one director and no separate cast list or crew list. That is the reason for listing it as one episode :)

I get that. That's your policy and its exactly what I'm complaining about. I just don't understand why you considered it right when all other official sources split the episodes.


JuanArango wrote 5 years ago: 1

eterfgf wrote:
I get that. That's your policy and its exactly what I'm complaining about. I just don't understand why you considered it right when all other official sources split the episodes.

imdb or wiki are no official sources, I checked the FXX website but they sadly only have season 5 listed there.


Delenn wrote 5 years ago: 1

JuanArango wrote:
oops, did not see it, hmm they got it listed as two separate episodes too, maybe we need to change it here.

To be fair though, this has been raised numerous times. I’m sure I argued for it to be 2 episodes at the time. But the website was always overruled as a source because it aired as one single episode on TV, with no break or separate credit blocks, and it’s the aired version we go by.


JuanArango wrote 5 years ago: 1

Delenn wrote:
To be fair though, this has been raised numerous times. I’m sure I argued for it to be 2 episodes at the time. But the website was always overruled as a source because it aired as one single episode on TV, with no break or separate credit blocks, and it’s the aired version we go by.

yeh you are correct, now I remember that we had this talk before, I am getting old :)

Gadfly wrote 5 years ago: 1

The question is, does the aired version override the "official source" of FX?

The Data Policies aren't that clear: they say:

Data shown on-screen during the episode's announcement, intro, or credits

Is an airtime any of those three? Sometimes the network might announce an air-length ("Coming up: a special one-hour premiere...", for instance) but typically it's just... how long the episode runs and how it airs.

As another example, the Monk premiere aired as a single two-hour "episode". I saw it. But there's no announcement, intro, or credits that say that. It just... did. Why do some sites list it as two separate episodes? Don't know. If the show's official website subsequently said it's two episodes, is that "rewriting history"?

What's more real, "reality" reality or "Internet " reality? :)


Delenn wrote 5 years ago: 1

I think the problem with using a website to override any episode listing/numbering decision, is that websites are not static, they can be changed (and frequently are changed). What if FX later changed it back to a single episode on the website? The aired episode is a fixed point, you can't go back in time and change it, it aired with no onscreen recognition of it being two parts. There was no 'part 1 written by' or 'part 2 starring' for example, which is what we have been using to determine 2-part episode listings (ie. why we split the The Good Place premieres into 2 separate entries). It's not so much about the airtime itself, more than the onscreen data makes no reference to it being 2 parts. To make it 2 parts after the fact seems a bit like rewriting history.

Saying that, would the alternate list option be a way to manage this? You're the Worst season 4 is out on DVD, does anyone know how it's presented there?

Gadfly wrote 5 years ago: 1

+1 on the website thing. I could change most wikis today. Does that mean that if we're basing episodes on wikis, we change all of our wiki-based entries? What if an edit war is going on there? Is a certain minimum time required before we use data from wikis? Who is going to check the wikis' edit logs?

What if I want episodes to be listed a certain way, and I go to a wiki to make it so, so to speak?

Another problem is how many wikis would we determine have to say a certain thing before we accept it as "truth"? 95%? 75? 51%?

It seems to me that the original source should be the #1 acceptable source, which the data policies only partially say. But how do you "prove" what the episode itself did? Even if we have a Time-Space Visualizer (for you Doctor Who fans :) ), how do we "prove" what we saw is what we're submitting?

If the DVD listing has the 1/2-part format, then it would seem suitable for an alternate list option. If it's just "An alternate list to show what wikis say"... ugh.


Delenn wrote 5 years ago: 1

Gadfly wrote:
But how do you "prove" what the episode itself did? Even if we have a Time-Space Visualizer (for you Doctor Who fans :) ), how do we "prove" what we saw is what we're submitting?

Let's just say, in this specific case, I can prove it because I (theoretically) still have a copy of the original airing of the episode. Let us not discuss how/why I have the aforementioned (theoretical) copy. ;-) I could (theoretically) take screencaps to 'prove' it.

Gadfly wrote 5 years ago: 1

In what specific case? For instance there's no onscreen evidence that Monk originally aired as a two-hour "episode". Maybe there's a commercial or a preview card that says it, but that might be a bit much to expect a contributor to not only have a copy of the episode but of the preview card, commercials, and anything else relevant. I don't watch The Good Place, but I imagine something similar occurs: there's no onscreen "proof" that would show if it aired as two episodes or one.

To take an example, the original Cannon premiere was two hours. But the retrochannel MeTV airs it as two one-hour episodes. So if I want to "prove" that it aired as two one-hour episodes, all I have to do is screencap the relevant parts of the MeTV episodes, remove the MeTV logo, and hey presto, there's the "proof" that it aired as two one-hour episodes.

I'm not saying that TVMaze should demand such proof: only that the site is mostly based on a trust system. Demanding proof, whether it's wikis or screencaps or DVD lists or anything else, opens a whole can of worms.


Delenn wrote 5 years ago: 1

In the specific case of You're the Worst. The 'proof' (that would meet current TvM data policy) is the fact that onscreen credits from the original airing do not refer to anything being part 1 or part 2. There is one credit block, at the beginning, one writer credit, one director credit. By comparison, The Good Place onscreen credits from the original airing specifically refer to 'Chapter X' by written by Writer A and 'Chapter Y' being written by Writer B. The onscreen credits are the 'proof', and therefore it's listed as 2 episodes.

Your Cannon example presumably wouldn't pass TvM quality control, it's not the original airing, it's a repeat years later. That's not 'proof' if it's not the original airing. The original source should be gospel as per your words a few posts up. In all cases the original airings are the gospel, yes?

Also, you were the one who brought up 'proof', why ask how we would prove something only to say 'demanding proof' is unnecessary due to the trust system? I'm genuinely confused.

tnt wrote 5 years ago: 1

For Monk, for example, while there's no "on-screen" proof (unless someone still have that VHS tape :D ), the show's pilot was indeed scheduled to broadcast as a single two-hour episode https://web.archive.org/web/20020606133742/http://www.usanetwork.com/cgi-bin/rbox/schedule.cgi?db=US&ds=1&mon=7.02&wd=d&s=12

Also, this schedule directly naming it a two-hour pilot https://web.archive.org/web/20020806223319/http://www.usanetwork.com/series/monk/schedule.html

The way I see it: any multi-part episode, originally aired in consequent time slots, considered a single episode unless proven otherwise within the scope of TVmaze policy.

eterfgf wrote 5 years ago: 1

I could change most wikis today.

Well, you can't change IMDB. :) And I'm pretty sure you will need some prooflink anyway. Also most shows comes exactly with split episodes from the start and then contributors here changing it.

The 'proof' (that would meet current TvM data policy) is the fact that onscreen credits from the original airing do not refer to anything being part 1 or part 2.

Well that proof isn't good for me. Most of these double episodes have the same plot and share story (that's why there always would be one director and screenwriter), if it airs at the same day - why network would bother with credits? Just look at You're the Worst total episodes. They clearly ordered 13 with every season.


kevin87 wrote 5 years ago: 1

eterfgf wrote:
Well, you can't change IMDB. :) And I'm pretty sure you will need some prooflink anyway. Also most shows comes exactly with split episodes from the start and then contributors here changing it.

Well that proof isn't good for me. Most of these double episodes have the same plot and share story (that's why there always would be one director and screenwriter), if it airs at the same day - why network would bother with credits? Just look at You're the Worst total episodes. They clearly ordered 13 with every season.

Sometimes shows that run 30 minutes will do a double legnth episode and that will fulfill 2 episodes of the order, not just 1... and on top of that, when things air as a special series/season premiere with more than 1 episode together, and those episodes are written and directed by the same person and follow the same storyline, the networks usually air them without a end credit/opening credit split. It's been said many times here over the few years I've been using this site that on screen trumps everything... unless perhaps if the press releases have specific wording like "2 episode premiere" or something like that.

There's no right or wrong way, they're both technically correct in the confines of each situation. I do personally think we should split them since we put episode orders on season and then have less episodes than we say are ordered, and only Jimmy appeared in the first part and from what I remember he was the only one that didn't appear in the 2nd part since they took place at the same time in different places, and FWIW, they're split on FX's website and all the digital outlets (not sure about DVD because I don't buy stuff that's in SD and will look like crap on my tv lol)... but I also have no problem with them being one episode either. It just is what it is.

Also, anybody who signs up on IMDB can edit shows and cast and crew... I've done it plenty to fix mistakes.

Gadfly wrote 5 years ago: 1

eterfgf wrote:
Well, you can't change IMDB. :) And I'm pretty sure you will need some prooflink anyway. Also most shows comes exactly with split episodes from the start and then contributors here changing it.

Well that proof isn't good for me. Most of these double episodes have the same plot and share story (that's why there always would be one director and screenwriter), if it airs at the same day - why network would bother with credits? Just look at You're the Worst total episodes. They clearly ordered 13 with every season.

Actually, as Kevin87 notes, you can change IMDB. It's not as easy as changing a wiki, because IMDB is a pain in the ass to edit certain things. But I just edited it yesterday, and the change went through within a hour. I believe they auto-approve, at least for some contributors.

But for instance, Monk originally aired as a two-hour movie/"episode". So is the argument that it shouldn't be listed the way it originally aired? It probably received the financing of two one-hour episodes. But that's... accounting. If the network didn't bother with credits for part 1, why should TVMaze? But splitting it in two would require you to provide credits for the first part or the second that weren't onscreen. Or do we use the credits for subsequent one-hour "split aparts".

Also, amazon.com seems to list the DVD as having only 12 episodes.

The question is then, what proof would be good for you? And how many sources have to list one or the other for whichever one to be accepted as "real"?

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