Episode Cast chat

Tonks wrote:
I suggested a system where only current cast would show on the main page of a show (not with the ranking system that would wreak havock for previous seasons if i understood correctly how it worked on tvrage). Tvtome (before tvrage/tv.com) had a something in place were only the current cast would show on main page, the rest would be in a sub page and i never found out how they coded it. That is very useful for long running shows, soaps etc. Thomas said he's sent that suggestion to David. No site has that anymore. It disappeared with tvtome.
I'm guessing that's you want as well ?

If I recall correctly tvrage entererd information to the character name like "S01-S03" or "S04-now", this is definitely something we do not want to do, we think the only think to put there is the character name, nothing else.

Otherwise it needs to be discussed with the staff, if it is nicer to only have the current season main cast listed or the whole main cast. If i give this a quick thought now, I would prefer the whole main cast, but I can see that the other possibility also has its benefits.

cheers
Juan

TVRage used an attribute field to indicate the season appearance data, which was added on the main show page. The ranking system was a separate field on the same page. We were encouraged to put the current actors at the top. It displayed the top ten ranked actors (I think) on the show page.

On the individual episode pages, you then did something similar to what is on TVMaze: You checked off the actors appearing in that particular episode. It didn't display season tags from the show page, but it did display the actors on the episode page in the same order as on the main page. So if someone got upranked between seasons, the older episodes would show them as upranked as well.

For example, if Allison Mack was ranked 6th in season 1 of Smallville, but 2nd in season 10, and you ranked her correctly for her most recent season, the season 1 lists would not rank her incorrectly.

One question was what you did with actors who were credited but didn't appear.

Season tags were applied inconsistently by editors and contributors (S01, s01, Season 1, Season 01), and there were times when they were inconsistently used. Such as what if a show star started getting credited as such in the middle of a season? Did you list them as... S02E10, or episode 33+ (assuming season 1 had 23 episodes) or what?

IMDB doesn't seem to care about it and just list them by total number of episodes that they're in on the main show page. But then again, it doesn't distinguish main cast except by placing them at the top of the episode cast lists. But you can't tell when the main cast ends and the guest cast begins. Katie Cassidy and Lauren Cohan were show stars in season 3 of Supernatural. But there are 24 guest stars with more appearances on the show, so they're ranked above Cassidy & Cohan.

Wikipedia, it's whatever the heck wikieditors feel like.

TV.com, I think, let's you rearrange and sort the main cast lists individually on each individual episode. But has a limit of... 6? show stars on an episode page. To see the full casts, you have to click on a link.

But your show main page limits the number of main cast right displayed and it's based on if they're added at episode level and on the number of appearances? (I disagree with that on so many levels... credit order all the way for me, "popularity" sorting isn't a good option).

The attributes system that tvrage used probably wasn't good, but if you don't put anything in, you tell people the main cast is composed of people who may have left. Imdb goes from episode to show, and if you don't enter soemone at episode level, some info is missing, but the main cast is usually at the top (if no episode is linked, they'll have question marks in parentheses). Tvrage used ranks and/or attributes. Whether ranks or attributes, or both, the options aren't great but they were there for a reason, accuracy.

But showing just the main current cast, as in you can checkmark which are currently on a show on the main page would be a great feature. If it woul not have any impact at episode level.

An easy example is Grey's Anatomy. If you entere them properly, you'd have Katherine Heigl, TR knight, isiaih washington as main cast at the top with the core cast however they have left all over a decade ago. It doesn't give accurate info to a casual user. He'll look at the page and think, that person is not in the show, thus i'm not going to trust what i'm reading here. And those people moved on to other shows, so that would clash on their pages if the guides aren't filled and a lot of them aren't. Not an attack, it's a statement.

And if you look at imdb, i'll take a bet with you about "popularity" sorting on soaps. Some might never have been main cast, but they would show on every episode and if you look at any soaps, what governs them is every credit listed at episode level. Popularity over accuracy. So someone may never have been main cast, but would be at the top if s/he has appeared in every episode since the beginning. And i'll bet you won't be able to know from that page. You'd have to go to a fan site which would be that accurate to distinguish between guest and main cast.

Tonks wrote:
And if you look at imdb, i'll take a bet with you about "popularity" sorting on soaps. Some might never have been main cast, but they would show on every episode and if you look at any soaps, what governs them is every credit listed at episode level. Popularity over accuracy. So someone may never have been main cast, but would be at the top if s/he has appeared in every episode since the beginning. And i'll bet you won't be able to know from that page. You'd have to go to a fan site which would be that accurate to distinguish between guest and main cast.

I don't know how TVMaze displays anything when it comes to cast, for show stars or guest stars. That'd be a Juan or David answer. It seems to randomize... well, maybe not every time I visit the page. But every time I change or add or delete someone, or add a gallery image of them.

Since what you describe about IMDB is exactly what I described (you may have been posting while mine went up), I wouldn't take that bet. :) Staff and TCs have agreed that IMDB is a useless site for determining show star status.

I am open to almost all suggestions according to main cast, what we are definitely against is to put something like S01, season1, S1 and so on to the character name.

cheers
juan

Okay, you guys may have answered Gadfly on this and i am sorry if you need to re-answer it, but why ?

I'm asking because i'm pretty sure people will continue asking about this. I understand you want something that looks "clean" on the pages but it would be to the detriment of accuracy or reality (if you prefer that term). At least, i know for me it is.

Gadfly, yeah we cross-replied, sorry. But if you look at episode level, they do separate main cast from guest 90% of the time and they don't display special guest/co guest-stars like tv.com, tvrage or tvtome did (for example, i can say that murdoch mysteries is well tended on imdb and make the distinction at the episode level between main and guest, if you take into account that two/three of the characters not in the main opening credits are considered main cast in the end credits). They just don't do so anymore (they used to) on show pages. Soaps is the extreme example cause they''re not well tended. And your example with supernatural is spot on. But there is so many examples to choose from to explain how "popularity display" is wrong that it's just a question of convincing and then of choosing a good option. But one way or the other, a system to choose how they are displayed at show level, at episode level should be created or decided by the powers that be.

Why what? I'm coming in late, so might have missed the initial question. However, every site chooses a balance between ease of use and "accuracy." I also believe the idea of attribute fields is being brunted about, which would seem to be the logical place to put season info on main cast.

I'm going primarily by Supernatural at IMDB. For instance:

How do you tell here that Cohan is a main cast member and Sterling K. Brown is a guest star?

Just to choose a random episode of Murdoch Mysteries, I'm not seeing how they distinguish main from guest star either.

But anyhoo, TVMaze does have a system to display main cast at the show and episode level. It's admittedly pretty bare bones, and doesn't include season info on the main cast pages. But the data is there, assuming people went in and added main cast to the pages they appear in.

what we are definitely against is to put something like S01, season1, S1 and so on to the character name."

Why are they against this ?

okay, i'm going to say something, but i think Imdb just changed it recently, i finished season 8 on our site and it was very clear main cast - other on imdb. I used imdb because if i go via the opening credits, i enter the main guest, they don't have characters name and it's fatser. Of course for canadian shows, most of the time, the entire cast and guest and co-stars are listed at the end as well. Not always, it's not clear cut, but they tend to do that. I checked Scandal, How to get away with murder, it's not showing it as it used to very recently.

But you can see it's in credits order. That is correct still. so sorry, i gave an example from memory.

However it is here, though the rest is listed alphabetically and not in credit order, but you see main cast http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4667540/combined (still wrong, damn it), i'm sure you could correct it and move around the guest in credit order.

We agree on imdb, on show pages, you cannot for any show distinguish between guest and main cast. Number of appearances is what orders them, mostly. But at episode level, it's credits order, and most of the time, it is correct, less than tvrage was, but still. Right now, it's that or nothing for me (sorry i know the guides are filled a lot right now, so not trying to offend, but on the shows i've done lately, half of the guest stars aren't displayed and i use credit order when i enter so if i don't see someone, i cross that show to use as support on this site and go where it will probably be filled entirely. There is something about having to go to a sub page, Gadfly, we agree.
I'm going to take for example Gotham, Juan, don't take it personally. See Monaghan is credited first as a guest, when I checked it here, the first names showing were co-guest starring. I know cause i entered them later and realized who they were then. Hopefully, most of these problems will be taken care of when the main three categories are in place. It may still be randomized but at least special and guest stars will show first (hopefully).

EDIT : And on gotham, i'm checking each new episode, because they add main cast all the time. They added chris Chalk with season 2 episode 2. And i'm waiting for d'Agostino (Harvey dent) right now.

Tonks wrote:
what we are definitely against is to put something like S01, season1, S1 and so on to the character name."
Why are they against this ?

I think you're asking the wrong question, though. My understanding is that they're not against providing the data. They just don't want it in the character name field. We didn't at TVRage, either.

So what TVRage had, and what I understand the staff here wants, is for Bob Smith in the name field, and S01 in the separate attribute field. So for instance, the character page isn't on TVMaze named Bob Smith (S01)

By the same token, at IMDB, they don't list a cinematographer by the name Feliks Parnell (Director of Photography). The person's name is Feliks Parnell, and Director of Photography is an attribute assigned at the episode level.

(Why they use Cinematographer instead of Director of Photography as a main crew type when thousands of TV shows credit DoP is another story. ;) ).

Ah, yeah. Now i understand !

I misconstrued the answer as we do not want any type of information of that kind showing on the show main page. I just jumped a step, i'm so used to attributes that i didn't even think of specifying.

Attribute it is, then. Or something of the sort. and it should also show on the sub page of all main cast, right ?

But what i was asking as well was :

A system with checkboxes (if it is the best way to go with it) for all main cast that would enable a user to make sure that only the main cast of the current season appears on the main show page with no impact at the entire main cast page (the sub page) or at episode level. If i got it correctly, the rank system at tvrage to reflect who was currently on the show affected all seasons and i'm not advocating for that. It would be a system that would only affect the display on the main show page.

Let me explain with an example :

This is what it looks like right now on our site (years are entered manually, and are not part of the characters name).

Eion Bailey ..... August Wayne Booth (2012-2012)
Robert Carlyle ..... Rumplestiltskin / M. Gold (2011-????)
Joshua Dallas ..... John Doe / David Nolan (2011-????)
Emilie de Ravin ..... Belle (2012-????)
Jamie Dornan ..... Sherif Graham (2011-2011)
Jared S. Gilmore ..... Henry Mills (2011-????)
Ginnifer Goodwin ..... Mary Margaret Blanchard (2011-????)
Rebecca Mader ..... Zelina (2015-????)
Sean Maguire ..... Robin Hood (2015-????)
Jennifer Morrison ..... Emma Swan (2011-????)
Colin O'Donoghue ..... Killian Jones (2013-????)
Meghan Ory ..... Ruby (2012-2013)
Lana Parrilla ..... Regina Mills (2011-????)
Michael Raymond-James ..... Neal Cassady (2013-2014)
Raphael Sbarge ..... Jiminy Cricket / Archie Hopper (2011-2012)
Michael Socha ..... Will Scarlett (2014-2015)

What would be ideal would be (with credit order with no impact on episode level of any season or the subpage for the main cast).

Robert Carlyle ..... Rumplestiltskin / M. Gold (2011-????)
Joshua Dallas ..... John Doe / David Nolan (2011-????)
Emilie de Ravin ..... Belle (2012-????)
Jared S. Gilmore ..... Henry Mills (2011-????)
Ginnifer Goodwin ..... Mary Margaret Blanchard (2011-????)
Rebecca Mader ..... Zelina (2015-????)
Sean Maguire ..... Robin Hood (2015-????)
Jennifer Morrison ..... Emma Swan (2011-????)
Colin O'Donoghue ..... Killian Jones (2013-????)
Lana Parrilla ..... Regina Mills (2011-????)

That's for a small cast.

since we don't limit the number of actors on the show page, you can imagine the results for soaps...

*I wish i could haved used quotes, it probably would have looked a little nicer to the eyes / more readable. Sorry.

Gadfly wrote:
I think you're asking the wrong question, though. My understanding is that they're not against providing the data. They just don't want it in the character name field. We didn't at TVRage, either.
So what TVRage had, and what I understand the staff here wants, is for Bob Smith in the name field, and S01 in the separate attribute field. So for instance, the character page isn't on TVMaze named Bob Smith (S01)
By the same token, at IMDB, they don't list a cinematographer by the name Feliks Parnell (Director of Photography). The person's name is Feliks Parnell, and Director of Photography is an attribute assigned at the episode level.
(Why they use Cinematographer instead of Director of Photography as a main crew type when thousands of TV shows credit DoP is another story. ;) ).

Yep, gadfly explained it perfectly :)

Tonks wrote:
Ah, yeah. Now i understand !
I misconstrued the answer as we do not want any type of information of that kind showing on the show main page. I just jumped a step, i'm so used to attributes that i didn't even think of specifying.
Attribute it is, then. Or something of the sort. and it should also show on the sub page of all main cast, right ?

But what i was asking as well was :
A system with checkboxes (if it is the best way to go with it) for all main cast that would enable a user to make sure that only the main cast of the current season appears on the main show page with no impact at the entire main cast page (the sub page) or at episode level. If i got it correctly, the rank system at tvrage to reflect who was currently on the show affected all seasons and i'm not advocating for that. It would be a system that would only affect the display on the main show page.


Let me explain with an example :
This is what it looks like right now on our site (years are entered manually, and are not part of the characters name).

Eion Bailey ..... August Wayne Booth (2012-2012)
Robert Carlyle ..... Rumplestiltskin / M. Gold (2011-????)
Joshua Dallas ..... John Doe / David Nolan (2011-????)
Emilie de Ravin ..... Belle (2012-????)
Jamie Dornan ..... Sherif Graham (2011-2011)
Jared S. Gilmore ..... Henry Mills (2011-????)
Ginnifer Goodwin ..... Mary Margaret Blanchard (2011-????)
Rebecca Mader ..... Zelina (2015-????)
Sean Maguire ..... Robin Hood (2015-????)
Jennifer Morrison ..... Emma Swan (2011-????)
Colin O'Donoghue ..... Killian Jones (2013-????)
Meghan Ory ..... Ruby (2012-2013)
Lana Parrilla ..... Regina Mills (2011-????)
Michael Raymond-James ..... Neal Cassady (2013-2014)
Raphael Sbarge ..... Jiminy Cricket / Archie Hopper (2011-2012)
Michael Socha ..... Will Scarlett (2014-2015)

What would be ideal would be (with credit order with no impact on episode level of any season or the subpage for the main cast).

Robert Carlyle ..... Rumplestiltskin / M. Gold (2011-????)
Joshua Dallas ..... John Doe / David Nolan (2011-????)
Emilie de Ravin ..... Belle (2012-????)
Jared S. Gilmore ..... Henry Mills (2011-????)
Ginnifer Goodwin ..... Mary Margaret Blanchard (2011-????)
Rebecca Mader ..... Zelina (2015-????)
Sean Maguire ..... Robin Hood (2015-????)
Jennifer Morrison ..... Emma Swan (2011-????)
Colin O'Donoghue ..... Killian Jones (2013-????)
Lana Parrilla ..... Regina Mills (2011-????)

That's for a small cast.
since we don't limit the number of actors on the show page, you can imagine the results for soaps...


*I wish i could haved used quotes, it probably would have looked a little nicer to the eyes / more readable. Sorry.

Those ideas are nice and I can see those added at some later time, right now we got so much stuff to handle that we need to prioritize stuff :)

I'm coming back to this because i realized something as I was working on our db which is using alphabetical order (at episode level as well). (most of the time)

At episode level, my main gripe here and that might be why i combined both issues was you couldn't put them in credit order and you couldn't see the difference between a special guest or a guest or a guest co-stars (mostly the ones at the end). And then i realized what i was really missing : everything on the episode main page. If you don't limit the number of guest listed on that main episode page, then i don't care. That's why i was taking Gotham's example and the fact monaghan wasn't to be found (when i checked, it probably changed since then) on the main episode page. I'd still like credit order, but if you have the categories and it display all guests, i'm good.

When you'll implement the main three categories (or more, i don't know if that evolved in the background), if some are still missing from the main episode page, the fact that i need to go to another page will always push me to another website. I guess with the trailer window being so big, it's just a question of scrolling down.

I understand on main show page, you have to pick a an arbitrary number of main cast (10 or 15 for example, 6 is too low (that's tv.com) tvrage might have had 10 (i can't remember)) showing because some shows have been on air for ages and thus, most will be seen on the sub page, but for episode, it's not an infinite number. The worst are shows like game of thrones or boardwalk empire and they have soemthing around 50 guest actors (between guest, special and co guest-stars) i stay away from these shows as in taking care of them for a reason. And if you order them properly, people will stop at the design when it says co-guest stars if they don't care.

If the system agrees with the fact that it displays them in the order they are entered, more often than not, it will be credit order (not always but i'll wager it will be higher percentage than those that just copy from the Press Releases), if you add to that the categories and display all. It'll be perfect.

You could use a ranking system at this level that would not have any impact anywhere else on the show guide, unlike at show level. So let's say someone uses the press release (which are most of the time incomplete or false), then someone else who see it's in the wrong order could use a rank system from 1 to whatever. 1 being the first credited with always special above all even though special guest can be listed either at the top of the credits or at the end of the opening credits.

Also, maybe a useful feature would be something about an attribute if a person is a guest star but not listed at the beginning to keep the surprise of his/her appearance à la Se7en ;)