UK cast policy

I don't really have much experience with the British stuff. I must just watch the "normal" UK casting stuff.

A couple of things do come to mind.

What about animated shows? Many of them either don't list the cast (main or otherwise) at the beginning, or differentiate them at the end. For instance, Justice League Unlimited dumped everyone at the end. And it's debateable whether it had a "main cast" once it went the full Unlimited route. Kin Shriner as a "guest star" was probably in more episodes than Michael Rosenberg in those three seasons, or pretty close to it. Should animated shows be treated similarly?

Across the world, various countries and networks have different ways to list people. As noted with the ChrisAmon discussion, "Featuring" was big in the 80s. So is TVMaze going to add a different section for every different network/country that separate some cast from another for a reason? They separated "Co-Star" from "Featuring" for a reason, too.

Well, you could just eliminate the different categories. No main cast, no guest/co/special stars. Just list the actors appearing in each episode. Problem solved. Works for every show, every country.

TomSouthwell wrote:
If we don't credit them as show stars, we definitely need a different section to add these cast members under, the networks are seperating them from the rest of the guest cast for a reason.

I don't dispute that logic. They are clearly distinguished from those actors who only appear in end credits, and it has been my observation that is usually closely linked to their overall importance of the plot of that specific episode; like a distinction between a guest star and merely a guest. However, TVMaze currently doesn't have that option as part of its structure, so until it does, surely it makes more sense to catagorise them with the other guests, rather than the established regular/main cast? That seems to me at least, to be the most logical place for them to go. Despite being in opening credits, they're clearly closer in nature to what TVMaze considers guest cast than what TVMaze considers main cast.

Gadfly, obviously I can't speak to shows I have no knowledge of, but does JLU make distinctions in other official documentation? Websites, press info and whatnot? My argument is primarily based on the fact that other official documentation should be considered alongside onscreen sequences when the situation isn't straight forward, in an effort to best represent the information we do have. Guest stars can be in more episodes than main stars, especially if there's a high main cast rotation or if a show runs long enough, and the amount of episodes doesn't necessarily infer main cast status. & while over the years, wording has changed, this is again, part of my argument, that a blanket policy doesn't allow for existing complexities, that certain shows should be looked at more closely, and that all available information should be considered, rather than a sole reliance on onscreen credits (especially whenother documentation is available). & for what it's worth, it would seem to me that 'co-star' infers a starring/main role, that an actor co-stars alongside someone of equal importance/status; and 'featuring' infers something closer to what we would now call Special Guest Star, which does exist as catagory on TVMaze. But again, it would depend on exactly what official information is available as to how best to determine catagorisation.

pentar, I can't tell if you're being flippant or not. But I'm not sure that no distinctions are the answer, distinctions clearly exist, it would be problematic to do away with them completely. :-/

The issue with JLU is that the first two years, when it was just called Justice League, it did have a clearly delineated "Main Cast." The seven characters were shown up front, they were listed in a batch at the end. (Although not listed if they didn't appear.) Then it switched to Justice League Unlimited, and they added in a lot more main/recurring characters (like the aforementioned Kin Shriner) and at least one of the original main cast (Michael Rosenberg) disappeared for a season or so.

There are a lot of animated shows like that, some of them going back to the 60s. Challenge of the Superfriends, for instance... is every member of the League and the Legion a main cast member? They're all lumped together at the end, and sometimes did secondary voices in the show. Without any of the actors being credited to any of their characters. There's no official documentation for a show that aired back in the 60s, and I doubt that pre-Internet there was one. And it's hardly the only show like that.

Featuring when I've seen it seems to be a variation on Co-Star. It's always for minor and/or no-name characters (i.e., Guard #1), and in the end credits rather than up-front. And there are usually 3-6 "Featuring" people per show when the role name is used. I would not say Featuring = Special Guest Star. And I don't think "Featuring" is necessary. But if TVMaze is going to take the approach that every time a show uses a particular role, named or unnamed, it should be added to the database, then the same reasoning would mean that Following is added.

TomSouthwell wrote:
I've added screengrabs of the opening and closing credits of 'Midsomer Murders'
http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/1014738/midsomer-murders-19x03-last-man-out/gallery

From the way these screencaps are set up I would say Dudegeon and Hendrix are main cast (they are listed separately as starring) followed by guest cast (all listed in pairs of two or three) and any other than those that are listed after the episode are co-stars. Personally i think that also makes the most sense, main cast being the two people the show is about while guest cast are the characters the particular episode deals with that are important to the plot while end credits are for the minor co-stars.

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this, it's exam season here and that has prompted a bit of attention refocusing. :)

Gadfly, I guess my argument would still be, given that (from what you're telling me) animated shows often have a complicated way of utilising credits, and with some shows being older and approaching terminology differently, that some shows should be considered on a case-by-case basis, as they would not be served by well by this new blanket policy. If the goal here is to best represent what we know as a community of viewers (in absence of firm official info), then one size is never going to fit all. So to speak. Surely there has got to be a way to let the TVmaze community pool their knowledge and come up with a logical organisational structure for the shows they love and watch on a regular basis? Wouldn't they be in the best position to make the most accurate determination when a show requires more complex attention than a blanket policy can provide?

MTQueenie, this is pretty much what I'm arguing. There is a clear distinction there, the default 'all opening cast main cast' approach would seem to not seem to be appropriate, especially given there is other official (dated,but still relevant information) information that confirms the on screen distinction to be relevant. I'm glad someone else sees it though, I was starting to think I was going mad. :)

Out of interest, is this discussion having any effect on behind the scenes related things in regards to this topic? This decision also has a huge impact on the way Death In Paradise is organised (ex. http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/1010670/death-in-paradise-6x02-episode-2/castappearances). Obviously it's not quite the same situation as Midsomer, the cast are not as clearly broken up into 2 groupings. However, the official website (and subsequent official promotional material for the show) clearly has a distinction as to who is considered 'main cast', http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/5NBydTwDZryNHPG17f3lLBp/characters, it's also worth noting that these characters/actors also have their images used in the opening credit sequence (whereas the important guest cast each week do not). The blanket policy would apparently not take these obvious (and official) pieces of information into consideration when determining the differences between main cast and guest cast, forming an inaccurate judgment based solely upon the title sequence/credits. A blanket policy, without consideration of all information, on a case by case basis, damages the accuracy of TVMaze and will, in the long run, make the complete main cast page for certain shows completely unloadable.

...And now I get to go back to my studying, fun!

"Surely there has got to be a way to let the TVmaze community pool their knowledge and come up with a logical organisational structure for the shows they love and watch on a regular basis? Wouldn't they be in the best position to make the most accurate determination when a show requires more complex attention than a blanket policy can provide?"

What way would you suggest?

Delenn wrote:
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this, it's exam season here and that has prompted a bit of attention refocusing. :)
Gadfly, I guess my argument would still be, given that (from what you're telling me) animated shows often have a complicated way of utilising credits, and with some shows being older and approaching terminology differently, that some shows should be considered on a case-by-case basis, as they would not be served by well by this new blanket policy. If the goal here is to best represent what we know as a community of viewers (in absence of firm official info), then one size is never going to fit all. So to speak. Surely there has got to be a way to let the TVmaze community pool their knowledge and come up with a logical organisational structure for the shows they love and watch on a regular basis? Wouldn't they be in the best position to make the most accurate determination when a show requires more complex attention than a blanket policy can provide?
MTQueenie, this is pretty much what I'm arguing. There is a clear distinction there, the default 'all opening cast main cast' approach would seem to not seem to be appropriate, especially given there is other official (dated,but still relevant information) information that confirms the on screen distinction to be relevant. I'm glad someone else sees it though, I was starting to think I was going mad. :)
Out of interest, is this discussion having any effect on behind the scenes related things in regards to this topic? This decision also has a huge impact on the way Death In Paradise is organised (ex. http://www.tvmaze.com/episodes/1010670/death-in-paradise-6x02-episode-2/castappearances). Obviously it's not quite the same situation as Midsomer, the cast are not as clearly broken up into 2 groupings. However, the official website (and subsequent official promotional material for the show) clearly has a distinction as to who is considered 'main cast', http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/5NBydTwDZryNHPG17f3lLBp/characters, it's also worth noting that these characters/actors also have their images used in the opening credit sequence (whereas the important guest cast each week do not). The blanket policy would apparently not take these obvious (and official) pieces of information into consideration when determining the differences between main cast and guest cast, forming an inaccurate judgment based solely upon the title sequence/credits. A blanket policy, without consideration of all information, on a case by case basis, damages the accuracy of TVMaze and will, in the long run, make the complete main cast page for certain shows completely unloadable.

...And now I get to go back to my studying, fun!

I don't think anyone's said they disagree with you at all. I've said what we need in this thread, we need a seperate section for the important guest stars to be added to. UK shows don't have co stars, so we would never use that and that's also the reason that the discussion was even started. I'm also going to ignore any discussion about animated shows, the UK has no currently running prime time animated shows I'm aware of and that's what the new policy has been put in place for - UK shows.

There is no discussion going on behind the scenes either, whether the topic is brought up again, I don't know, I can ask if an admin will step in, but the decision has already been made, so I doubt you hearing something different from them

Gadfly wrote:
"Surely there has got to be a way to let the TVmaze community pool their knowledge and come up with a logical organisational structure for the shows they love and watch on a regular basis? Wouldn't they be in the best position to make the most accurate determination when a show requires more complex attention than a blanket policy can provide?"
What way would you suggest?

Taking all available evidence into account and not prioritising one official source above another would be a good start. However, that obviously only applies when there is official information available, especially in regards to shows that might not immediately conform to the way TVMaze organises information. The fact is, in a large number of UK shows (I can only speak to what I know, that's kindof half the point here), not all title sequence cast are main cast. Annoying as it is, problematic as it making organising things; in these shows, main cast cannot be determined solely by title sequences alone. Other official information has to inform the listing if it's going to be as accurate as it can be.

Beyond that, I'm unsure. Some sort of forum dedicated to the more complex shows, so that the best structure can be debated/discussed by all who watch said show/have an opnion, with a show-specific conclusion being reached, and decided upon by a human being, not a policy? A selected group of contributors who have reliably provided information in the past agreeing to look at more complex shows and agree upon an organisation structure that most accurately represents the show and all the available information? I'm not saying I have all the answers, or that this isn't complicated, but that's the best part of being a community, other people having ideas you wouldn't have thought of yourself. Asking for a better solution if the one you have doesn't quite work as well as it could. I find it hard to believe that with all the TV we watch as a (somewhat massive) community we couldn't come up with a less, rigid, approach.

Delenn wrote:
Taking all available evidence into account and not prioritising one official source above another would be a good start. However, that obviously only applies when there is official information available, especially in regards to shows that might not immediately conform to the way TVMaze organises information. The fact is, in a large number of UK shows (I can only speak to what I know, that's kindof half the point here), not all title sequence cast are main cast. Annoying as it is, problematic as it making organising things; in these shows, main cast cannot be determined solely by title sequences alone. Other official information has to inform the listing if it's going to be as accurate as it can be.
Beyond that, I'm unsure. Some sort of forum dedicated to the more complex shows, so that the best structure can be debated/discussed by all who watch said show/have an opnion, with a show-specific conclusion being reached, and decided upon by a human being, not a policy? A selected group of contributors who have reliably provided information in the past agreeing to look at more complex shows and agree upon an organisation structure that most accurately represents the show and all the available information? I'm not saying I have all the answers, or that this isn't complicated, but that's the best part of being a community, other people having ideas you wouldn't have thought of yourself. Asking for a better solution if the one you have doesn't quite work as well as it could. I find it hard to believe that with all the TV we watch as a (somewhat massive) community we couldn't come up with a less, rigid, approach.

I'm really confused by some of the suggestions, and why this is becoming such a big issue. The staff we have here are those who reliably provide the information, but your suggesting that that isn't correct because it's not organised how you want it to be, the staff aren't in the position for any other reason then the reliable information they provide, this isn't a actual job for anyone here, we are all volunteers.

The other thing to be taken into consideration here is that out of everyone on the site visiting the U.K. shows in question, noones complained, aside from an odd few comments in this thread and your original and subsequent posts.

TomSouthwell wrote:
I don't think anyone's said they disagree with you at all. I've said what we need in this thread, we need a seperate section for the important guest stars to be added to. UK shows don't have co stars, so we would never use that and that's also the reason that the discussion was even started. I'm also going to ignore any discussion about animated shows, the UK has no currently running prime time animated shows I'm aware of and that's what the new policy has been put in place for - UK shows.
There is no discussion going on behind the scenes either, whether the topic is brought up again, I don't know, I can ask if an admin will step in, but the decision has already been made, so I doubt you hearing something different from them

Sorry, was in the middle of writing my last post before I saw this.

So... Keeping it on track, even though there is clearly official evidence of a difference between main and guest cast (both on screen and in the form of press releases) in terms of Midsomer, and that the BBC official website clearly has a main characters/cast page for Death in Paradise... The blanket policy will continue to ignore this information, maintaining it's rigidity in the face of supporting official evidence that contradicts it? & even though the policy is clearly problematic... Nobody is going to even re-evaluate the importance of other official information, the actual usefulness of soley using on-screen credits to determine main cast in the UK, or the potential long term issues? Are policies now so set in stone that they cannot possibly ever be wrong? No offence intended Tom, I know you're absolutely doing your job here, and you've been completely reasonable (and respectful, which I appreciate) in discussing this topic, but as far as UK specific policies go... This is just an abysmal representation/catagorisation of available facts.

Edited to add: I didn't anticipate this being such a big thing when I brought it up either, but despite provided evidence, which is usually enough to make logical changes... It became a big dicussion. In all other cases I have seen on TVMaze, providing official information to support an assertation has been enough. I'm sorry I'm the only one who brought it up. Like I said, I didn't expect it to be this whole big thing, especially given what seemed to be the kind of evidence TVMaze usually takes as valid. I get that everyone is a volunteer, but you can still volunteer to do a job. Gadfly asked a question, and I answered it. My argument isn't that it's not correctly simply because I don't like it, my argument is that there's official show information that says it's not correct.

I have to agree with Deleen on this one. The blanket policy that all listed before the episode is considered main cast is fine IF there are no other official material to suggest otherwise but if the official site, facebook page or press releases suggest otherwise then that should definitely be taken into account too.

TomSouthwell wrote:
I'm really confused by some of the suggestions, and why this is becoming such a big issue. The staff we have here are those who reliably provide the information, but your suggesting that that isn't correct because it's not organised how you want it to be, the staff aren't in the position for any other reason then the reliable information they provide, this isn't a actual job for anyone here, we are all volunteers.
The other thing to be taken into consideration here is that out of everyone on the site visiting the U.K. shows in question, noones complained, aside from an odd few comments in this thread and your original and subsequent posts.

I think no one else has said anything because no one else knows about this problem. If I had known about this, I would have brought it up long ago, but I guess I don't watch that kind of British TV show. I find it really strange that you don't see why this is a big issue. I just looked at the main cast page of Death in Paradise and it's a mess. About halfway down the screen, all the names that you click on have just been in the one episode. Clearly someone who doesn't know about this problem (like me 30 minutes ago) has added all these people under the main cast because they don't know any better and now someone's going to have to take them out and presumably, the next episode will have the same problem all over again. I don't see why this has to be such a big deal. This website most definitely tailors specific fixes for show-specific problems. In the second season of The Librarians, I came across a problem where everybody kept putting ellipses at the beginning of every episode of the season because of one misprinted press release that then got copied umpteenth times over the entire internet, and that's how everybody thought the episodes were titled. Turned out that wasn't true, none of the episodes had ellipses at the beginning, and by showing the people in charge evidence of this, they changed all the episodes and added what they call an "editor's wiki" (http://www.tvmaze.com/showwiki/view?id=340) to the show that pops up anytime somebody tried to change an episode title, and lets them know not to add the ellipses. I really don't see why this approach can't be used on every show that has this problem. I know there are probably a lot of shows out there that do this, but a simple note letting people know not to add these cast members seems like a small price to pay versus having to delete them every time someone adds them. And they will have to be deleted. I don't think there is anybody here who is arguing that point anymore. Having the extras listed as main cast, whether they are in the title credits or not is obviously insane.

MTQueenie wrote:
I have to agree with Deleen on this one. The blanket policy that all listed before the episode is considered main cast is fine IF there are no other official material to suggest otherwise but if the official site, facebook page or press releases suggest otherwise then that should definitely be taken into account too.

It's a busy week for me, so this thread has become a bit too long winded to read everything. But please note (again!) that this is exactly the case already.

For UK shows; if none of the official sources explicitly separate Main Cast from Guest Cast , actors appearing in the opening credits should be added as Main Cast and actors only appearing in the closing credits as Guest Cast.

david wrote:
One key point about the rule is that it only applies if there's not a single other source distinguishing Main Cast from Guest Cast. If the on-screen credits, the official site or a press release specify whether a role is Main or Guest, that has priority over this rule.

david wrote:
It's a busy week for me, so this thread has become a bit too long winded to read everything. But please note (again!) that this is exactly the case already.
For UK shows; if none of the official sources explicitly separate Main Cast from Guest Cast , actors appearing in the opening credits should be added as Main Cast and actors only appearing in the closing credits as Guest Cast.

The shows been pointed out in this thread don't have any of the above, unless they are years old.

TomSouthwell wrote:
The shows been pointed out in this thread don't have any of the above, unless they are years old.

Sorry Tom but that's not true. As I've said before in this thread the facebook page for Death in Paradise clearly lists the one off stars as guestcast not main. If you look at the episode 2 that just aired a lot of the main cast we have are clearly marked guestcast on the official Facebook page.

If the same applies to Midsomer i don't know as i don't follow that show so will have to check up on that, however the idea that we will end up with main cast pages a mile long because you suddenly wanna add most one off guest as main against every other site and any logical sense is just ridiculous

MTQueenie wrote:
Sorry Tom but that's not true. As I've said before in this thread the facebook page for Death in Paradise clearly lists the one off stars as guestcast not main. If you look at the episode 2 that just aired a lot of the main cast we have are clearly marked guestcast on the official Facebook page.
If the same applies to Midsomer i don't know as i don't follow that show so will have to check up on that, however the idea that we will end up with main cast pages a mile long because you suddenly wanna add most one off guest as main against every other site and any logical sense is just ridiculous

After having more thoughts about that, if the official facebook page names them as guest stars, we need to add them as guest stars, that's what I would do :)

TomSouthwell wrote:
The shows been pointed out in this thread don't have any of the above, unless they are years old.

That's what the last couple of posts were arguing about though.

As for Midsomer, the press pack (www.itv.com/presscentre/press-packs/midsomer-murders-1) lists exactly who's Main Cast and who's Guest Cast, so this discussion doesn't apply to it at all.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/DeathInParadiseUK/photos/?ref=page_internal

As you can see before each episode they upload a photomontage of the stars of the upcoming episode and they are clearly labeled as guestcast