david wrote:
As for Midsomer, the press pack (www.itv.com/presscentre/press-packs/midsomer-murders-1) lists exactly who's Main Cast and who's Guest Cast, so this discussion doesn't apply to it at all.
Yes according to this there are only 4 main cast, Dudgeon, Hendrix, Dolman and Virk as they are the only listed as main cast on page 5-14
JuanArango wrote:
After having more thoughts about that, if the official facebook page names them as guest stars, we need to add them as guest stars, that's what I would do :)
So now for every Brit show, I need to check 3 or 4 different things before adding cast. Yet the main show policy states onscreen data takes precedent, that's ridiculous. I'm actually pretty annoyed that the staff who were more for deciding this policy would then I ever was, haven't backed me up once in here and I'm only the one enforcing it.
In this thread numerous users have said it's what I've decided and what im doing and in honesty that's not the truth at all, I said we'd have these issues. Now because one show has a Facebook page and another has a press pack, we have to go by those listings instead, this is crazy, if a response like this would of been given straight away, we wouldn't be 3 pages into a conversation and now have tons of shows that need looking at again.
Ok, so according to the press-release one can assume, that there are 8 main cast actors in the series 4 of Endeavour?
Page 3:
"...the new series sees star Shaun Evans (War Book, The Scandalous Lady W) reprise his role as the young Endeavour Morse alongside stage and screen actor Roger Allam (The Missing, The Lady in the Van) as mentor, Detective Inspector Fred Thursday, for a brand new set of complex cases. Also starring in the upcoming series are Anton Lesser as Chief Superintendent Reginald Bright, Sean Rigby as PC Jim Strange, James Bradshaw as Doctor Max deBryn, Caroline O’Neil as Win Thursday, Dakota Blue Richards as WPC Shirley Trewlove, and Abigail Thaw as Dorothea Frazil."
Is it right?
TomSouthwell wrote:
So now for every Brit show, I need to check 3 or 4 different things before adding cast. Yet the main show policy states onscreen data takes precedent, that's ridiculous. I'm actually pretty annoyed that the staff who were more for deciding this policy would then I ever was, haven't backed me up once in here and I'm only the one enforcing it.
In this thread numerous users have said it's what I've decided and what im doing and in honesty that's not the truth at all, I said we'd have these issues. Now because one show has a Facebook page and another has a press pack, we have to go by those listings instead, this is crazy, if a response like this would of been given straight away, we wouldn't be 3 pages into a conversation and now have tons of shows that need looking at again.
That's the whole point of the argument, yes. Since some British shows have such crazy casting systems, and most of them are not uniform even among each other, then yes, it will require more research to determine who main cast/guest cast are. It's weird and annoying, but so are the credit sequences we're talking about, so it's only natural that the rules of how to label them also be weird and annoying.
It sounds more like the onscreen data is open to interpretation. So it's not that onscreen sources lack the final say: it's that when they aren't easily decipherable, other sources need to be used.
Gadfly wrote:
It sounds more like the onscreen data is open to interpretation. So it's not that onscreen sources lack the final say: it's that when they aren't easily decipherable, other sources need to be used.
I agree with that, it is actually very hard to decide with Brit shows.
TomSouthwell wrote:
So now for every Brit show, I need to check 3 or 4 different things before adding cast. Yet the main show policy states onscreen data takes precedent, that's ridiculous. I'm actually pretty annoyed that the staff who were more for deciding this policy would then I ever was, haven't backed me up once in here and I'm only the one enforcing it.
In this thread numerous users have said it's what I've decided and what im doing and in honesty that's not the truth at all, I said we'd have these issues. Now because one show has a Facebook page and another has a press pack, we have to go by those listings instead, this is crazy, if a response like this would of been given straight away, we wouldn't be 3 pages into a conversation and now have tons of shows that need looking at again.
It is a much more difficult thing than i ever thought, so it is not about backing up anyonre, it is about finding the right solution, which i thought would be alot easier to find, if we all work together I am sure we will find the correct way to handle this.
TomSouthwell wrote:
and now have tons of shows that need looking at again.
We have to look at them either way. Because of the change in policy many of the guest stars now has to be promoted to main cast in the past episodes/seasons. So it's better to decide once and for all, how to do it right, then re-edit them over and over again every time policy changes or some new reasons emerge.
TomSouthwell wrote:
So now for every Brit show, I need to check 3 or 4 different things before adding cast. Yet the main show policy states onscreen data takes precedent, that's ridiculous.
Yes, on-screen data have the top priority over everything else. But. What if the on-screen data is just a list of actor names – what can it tell us, apart from a fact, that those people is playing some parts in this episode? Nothing. If there's no title like "Main Cast" or "Starring" or something else – it doesn't help us at all. Except for the actor names. And if one of the actors, listed in the opening credits, is playing his part for the last 20 episodes, and other is playing in this show for the first and the last time – it is also a case of "on-screen" data, no? Character significance, appearance count etc. So how do one differentiate those two actors?
Ok, BBC commission rules says something about that. But BBC is not a sole source of TV Shows in the UK. And if you look at the ITV commission rules, for example, it says, that opening credits can include not only "Leading Cast", but also "Featured Stars". And how do one distinguish between them, based only on the on-screen list of actor names?
And I'm sure, if dig deeper, we'll see, that other UK channels have some other rules and so on.
What I'm saying, that there are a lot of cases, when on-screen data is just insufficient to definitely separate leads from guests. So anyway we have to check some other data sources.
Or we can blindly put all of the names from the opening credits to the main cast – yes, it's a lot easier, but would it be right?
JuanArango wrote:
It is a much more difficult thing than i ever thought, so it is not about backing up anyonre, it is about finding the right solution, which i thought would be alot easier to find, if we all work together I am sure we will find the correct way to handle this.
I already said it'd be hard to come up with a set of guidelines and said I didn't agree with using the BBC guidelines for every network.
And it is about backing up since all of us decided on the policy and now no one is taking ownership, so I'm the one taking the blame for it, since I'm th only staff member and who's been in the discussion constantly. Pretty much every other user in here has landed blame at my feet, I was just implementing the policy that was set
TomSouthwell wrote:
I already said it'd be hard to come up with a set of guidelines and said I didn't agree with using the BBC guidelines for every network.
And it is about backing up since all of us decided on the policy and now no one is taking ownership, so I'm the one taking the blame for it, since I'm th only staff member and who's been in the discussion constantly. Pretty much every other user in here has landed blame at my feet, I was just implementing the policy that was set
No one is blaming you, Tom, we are trying to find a working solution. If the on-screen credits leave room for interpretation, then the policy says that we should look at other sources (press release, official pages and so on), so the only thing that has to be decided with each show is, if the on-screen data is clear or if it is muddy and can be interpreted.
/me hugs Tom
TomSouthwell wrote:
I already said it'd be hard to come up with a set of guidelines and said I didn't agree with using the BBC guidelines for every network.
And it is about backing up since all of us decided on the policy and now no one is taking ownership, so I'm the one taking the blame for it, since I'm th only staff member and who's been in the discussion constantly. Pretty much every other user in here has landed blame at my feet, I was just implementing the policy that was set
For what it's worth at this point, I never intended to lay any blame solely at your feet, if that's how it came across to you, I'm very sorry for that. I really did just want to promote a discussion about the new policy (and the problems of it) and for the most part, you were the only staff member engaging. But again, I am sorry you've had to bear the brunt of it.
tnt wrote:
Yes, on-screen data have the top priority over everything else. But. What if the on-screen data is just a list of actor names – what can it tell us, apart from a fact, that those people is playing some parts in this episode? Nothing. If there's no title like "Main Cast" or "Starring" or something else – it doesn't help us at all. Except for the actor names. And if one of the actors, listed in the opening credits, is playing his part for the last 20 episodes, and other is playing in this show for the first and the last time – it is also a case of "on-screen" data, no? Character significance, appearance count etc. So how do one differentiate those two actors?
Ok, BBC commission rules says something about that. But BBC is not a sole source of TV Shows in the UK. And if you look at the ITV commission rules, for example, it says, that opening credits can include not only "Leading Cast", but also "Featured Stars". And how do one distinguish between them, based only on the on-screen list of actor names?
And I'm sure, if dig deeper, we'll see, that other UK channels have some other rules and so on.
What I'm saying, that there are a lot of cases, when on-screen data is just insufficient to definitely separate leads from guests. So anyway we have to check some other data sources.
Or we can blindly put all of the names from the opening credits to the main cast – yes, it's a lot easier, but would it be right?
This is what I'm dealing with for Chewing Gum. Personally for this show, I think there's only 2 real STARS and then maybe 4 others who could be considered main cast as well. The show's page on channel4.com has nothing about cast and TVDB has 12 listed on their page for it, which seems to mirror The British Comedy Guide's listing, including ones that aren't here (and listing Robert Lonsdaletwice)... but the show intro doesn't have any name and all the credits are at the end of the episode with everybody together in order of appearance. There are people listed as main cast on here but only appeared in one episode, some that show up but are never really the focus like a guest star and are there more than the "stars", and some on TVDB/BCG that only pop up for tiny little appearances in a few episodes that's more like the US would classify as a co-star. Since you can't differentiate between guest and co-star then putting those all as guest stars would be the way to go, but there's no way to decide who the main cast is really.
Chewing Gum has opening titles, so the cast featured in the title sequence were added as show stars.
Are those different than the 12 listed at TVDB?
I guess I'm confused why kevin87 is saying the show intro doesn't state the main cast, but Tom says that the opening titles/title sequence does. Aren't they all the same thing?
Gadfly wrote:
Are those different than the 12 listed at TVDB?
I guess I'm confused why kevin87 is saying the show intro doesn't state the main cast, but Tom says that the opening titles/title sequence does. Aren't they all the same thing?
They aren't stated as in 'Starring' but it's rare for any UK show to do that, they just appear in the opening sequence, hence why they were added. i think it's already established in the thread that it's on a show by show basis, if kevin87 doesn't agree with the way the cast is listed, then he can change it, just like anyone else can, since it's not clear. And why does TVDB come into it?
Kevin is the one who mentioned TVDB, you'd have to ask him why it comes into it.
I'm fine with any criteria that doesn't involve "I think..." :)
Gadfly wrote:
Kevin is the one who mentioned TVDB, you'd have to ask him why it comes into it.
I'm fine with any criteria that doesn't involve "I think..." :)
I just brought it up as a reference to show how each place has different cast, there's only a few that are on both here and TVDB. I don't remember who all is featured in the intro's footage, but it's mostly just random scenes from what I remember, not like how older intros would have cast members looking toward the camera when their names would flash on screen. It goes from that to the show and the only time any credits are shown is at the end where they all appear together.
I just didn't want to delete people and it be 'wrong.'
