Doctor who Christmas special - not displaying as next episode

srob650 wrote:
With Plex, XBMC, and Kodi all using the S00Exx standard for specials I'm really not sure why we're trying to re-invent the wheel here :p
Best solution in my eyes is use S00Exx but have them sort in episode list by airdate so you can see them in context of when they aired.

Plex and Kodi (XBMC is the former name of Kodi) doesn't use S00Exx. The TVDB does. And anyone who has dealt with TVDB knows that they are complete dumbasses.

They'll create complete new seasons for spinoffs in the parent show listing, because "it's a continuation of the story". They'll fabricate episode numberings because they "don't believe in split seasons".

When it comes to specials, why not differenciate between story specials and production specials? Like Dr Who christmas special this season would be "s09e13 (Special) Title", while a production title would be "s00e## Behind the Scenes Special".

I would also like to point out that while Dr Who's christmas special is marked as a special, Downton Abbey's is not.

Dragen wrote:
Plex and Kodi (XBMC is the former name of Kodi) doesn't use S00Exx. The TVDB does. And anyone who has dealt with TVDB knows that they are complete dumbasses.
They'll create complete new seasons for spinoffs in the parent show listing, because "it's a continuation of the story". They'll fabricate episode numberings because they "don't believe in split seasons".
When it comes to specials, why not differenciate between story specials and production specials? Like Dr Who christmas special this season would be "s09e13 (Special) Title", while a production title would be "s00e## Behind the Scenes Special".
I would also like to point out that while Dr Who's christmas special is marked as a special, Downton Abbey's is not.

Downton Abbey is classed as the next episode in the series as per ITV and their press centre. http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep1week52/downton-a...

Which states it as the last in series, not as a special episode.

Dragen wrote:
Plex and Kodi (XBMC is the former name of Kodi) doesn't use S00Exx. The TVDB does. And anyone who has dealt with TVDB knows that they are complete dumbasses.

Plex docs for specials numbering outlining S00Exx

Kodi docs for specials numbering outlining Season 0

Hmm, I actually created a userscript (JavaScript that runs when you visit a specific site) that will show the Special as the next episode, only if there isn't any regular next episode - whilst browsing, not using API.

Click here to see what the final output looks like.

I know that this is referring to the API, however you might want to consider setting is as the next episode if there currently isn't one.

srob650 wrote:
Plex docs for specials numbering outlining S00Exx
Kodi docs for specials numbering outlining Season 0

They do that because they both use TheTVDB, which put specials (regardless of what type) in s00. Everything that's not a "regular" episode will be s00 there.

TomSouthwell wrote:

Downton Abbey is classed as the next episode in the series as per ITV and their press centre. http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep1week52/downton-a...
Which states it as the last in series, not as a special episode.

They used "christmas special" in advertising. And I'd like to point out that the christmas special isn't included on the season set that was released before christmas. And I'll remind you that Sherlock had a christmas special too, which also appeared on the calendar.

And as david pointed out, if you can't miss a special for plot reasons it's an episode. And seeing as they tend to kill off or introduce new Doctors in the christmas specials, it's the one episode you shouldn't miss.

Dragen wrote:
They do that because they both use TheTVDB, which put specials (regardless of what type) in s00. Everything that's not a "regular" episode will be s00 there.

Yes, which is why I feel that we shouldn't go against the grain. That being said, I am looking into writing a TVMaze metadata scraper for Plex in the little free time I have :)

ok, so a month later, what's the stance on specials. In particular the specials which are in the continuity of the story, like it happens particularly often in UK shows (Doctor Who, Downton Abbey, Vicious, etc.)?

I'm reactivating the subject because a few months ago (before this thread), I tried to follow the rules and moved all Downton Abbey Christmas Specials as regular episodes (they're critical to the story, included in the seasons DVD box sets, and don't even mess with the seasons episode numbering since they're always the 9th and final episode of the season).

But I got a message from Thomas asking me not to do so and I see that someone (Thomas or so else) has put them back as Specials... So now the "last aired episode" appears again to be episode 6x08 and not the series finale, which in this particular case, makes absolutely no sense at all.

I don't know what to think of this, and I won't edit things back to how I had put them, because having read this thread, I understand that when asked in a general context, the question of specials is more complicated than that.

Yet the current state of the Downton Episode list is clearly what only a minority of users would agree upon, so I would've to know if there has been any real decision reached.

FAQ:

This is either a Regular Episode or a Special. For most shows, deciding whether an episode should be classified as special is fairly easy: if the premise of an episode significally differs from normal episodes and if you can skip it without missing out on any story arcs, it's a special. For example, a scripted show airing a "recap" episode at the beginning of the season that only consists out of fragments from earlier episodes. Or an episode using the same actors as normal, but with a script completely unrelated to the show's regular plot or arcs. In general, anything announced as "preview", "sneak peak", "special", "event" should be regarded as a special.

But in some cases it can be more complicated to tell whether an episode is a special or not. If so, refer to the order of the valid sources as described above.

Last point is referring to

In some cases, there might be multiple sources that conflict with each other. When that happens, they should be considered in the following order:

Data shown on-screen during the episode's announcement, intro, or creditsData in a press release or press kitData on the show's official websiteData in TV guides/TV listings/EPG's for the show's countryStatements by show crew in articles / interviews

Which means if ITV/BBC or whoever considers it a special, it's a special. Not just regular.

Thomas wrote:
FAQ:
But in some cases it can be more complicated to tell whether an episode is a special or not. If so, refer to the order of the valid sources as described above.
Last point is referring to
In some cases, there might be multiple sources that conflict with each other. When that happens, they should be considered in the following order:
Data shown on-screen during the episode's announcement, intro, or creditsData in a press release or press kitData on the show's official websiteData in TV guides/TV listings/EPG's for the show's countryStatements by show crew in articles / interviews
Which means if ITV/BBC or whoever considers it a special, it's a special. Not just regular.

As I told you in PM, you're totally overlooking the fact that it's particularly common in UK shows to name "Special" an episode that has absolutely no characteristics of what is considered a Special according to the FAQ (the part you cited and I squeezed), which contains a loophole which has been previously analyzed in this very thread.

Ok, ITV calls it a Special, yet it is not a special in the sense that is (not so clearly) defined in our FAQ. So what do we do ? Obviously, opinions differ and several proposals are competing but for now, no consensus seems to have been reached, and pending that, I'm not sure acting as if this question is solved is very helpful, expecially when trying to stir it in the direction of the minority opinion.

to sum it up, I think we need again the input of admins, don't we ?

Maybe until a solution is reached, the FAQ could be fixed so that Specials are clearly defined in it (maybe not in a satisfying way, but at least in a non ambiguous way)

We could argue about it, however if a channel considers them a special, it remains a special. The channel doesn't consider them as a 'must watch', cause otherwise they would have added it at as a regular episode. It doesn't matter what country it is from. The faq might be unclear, but it clearly states that if a channel considers it as a special, it is a special.

The main issue is that different networks (mainly US based ones vs UK based ones) have very different definitions for the term "special".

I know the FAQ currently isn't very clear about this, I'm sorry for that. As you can see in this thread it's not easy to come up with a solution that would make everybody happy. I'll look at this again in the near future to think about how we should deal with it.

yes, I think a formulation listing what must go in the 'specials' section _and_ what must not, covering most cases, would be clearer than the current FAQ.

From what I gather in this thread, it won't be satisfying in all cases, as a global solution will imply a bit more work in coding, notably. But in the meantime it would help settle situations, as it would really not be good to go into piling ups of contradictory edits, obviously.

david wrote:
The main issue is that different networks (mainly US based ones vs UK based ones) have very different definitions for the term "special".
I know the FAQ currently isn't very clear about this, I'm sorry for that. As you can see in this thread it's not easy to come up with a solution that would make everybody happy. I'll look at this again in the near future to think about how we should deal with it.

What about adding a checkbox to special episodes to declare it as 'Important to the storyline' (or similar words to that effect) and if true, include it in next/previous episode.

Though you might want to make it require trusted contributor status to edit.

That's more or less one of the solutions that have been examined.

Though there's the issue of appearance in the previous/next episode info, but also the issue of appearance on a season's episode listing rather than at the bottom of the page in a separate Specials section.

Gadfly wrote:
That all sounds horribly complicated. ;)
Al I'd really like to see is the system add something at the end like (Special). Then, when I bring up the episode list for the current season of Doctor Who, it shows me the 13 episodes this season. The first twelve are normal, the 13th one has (Special) at the end. Or has a S to the left. Or something. Some kind of Special indicator can appear on the episode page itself, too.
Right now if I go to the Doctor Who episode page:
http://www.tvmaze.com/shows/210/doctor-who/episode...
I have to click on Specials or otherwise scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the upcoming Christmas special.
I wouldn't mind if webisodes were separated out on their own, and I seem to recall that was at one time being discussed on a different thread. Then they wouldn't be mixed in with specials.
To put it bluntly, right now the current system of displaying Specials sucks as far as TVMaze itself is concerned. It doesn't sound any better when it comes to API.

The big problem with Doctor Who is that a Special can be very pertinent to the story line of the show. If I recall right, I believe that the regeneration sequence from Matt Smith to Peter Capaldi was actually in a special that was aired in chronological order along with the rest of the series. Doctor Who is so complex, you need to know when to watch some of the episode specials in order to know what other episodes could referring to.

I'm not sure why you're coping my post, but I don't disagree with anything you said. And you don't seem to be responding to anything I said. :)

So I'll certainly agree that some shows do indeed have Specials that are an integral part of the plot. This year's Sherlock Christmas special is probably another example. But there are lot of specials that aren't. Some have nothing to do with the plot of the actual show but are just recap shows. Once Upon a Time is big on those.

My concern is that the episode lists should show what is current. Regardless of whether the Doctor Who Christmas specials are integral to the part, or recap episodes, or 50th anniversary real-world science analyses, if they aired in the last month I'd like them at the top of the episode listings where the other stuff from the last month is shown. Not buried way down at the bottom.

Gadfly wrote:
My concern is that the episode lists should show what is current.

+1

The "Xmas Special" on Doctor Who is often referred to as episode 0 of the new series (season in the US).