Dual Identies, Parallel Worlds, Disguise, Etc. (possible spoilers)

Personally, I would consider Colin Donnell playing Christopher Chance an accurate representation of the information.

Even if it is Colin Donnell, who was of course Tommy Merlyn before he died, he's not technically playing OG Tommy Merlyn, OG Tommy Merlyn has been dead for a good long time. He's playing Christopher Chance, even if he is pretending to be Tommy. It's great that Colin Donnell was available to play 'the Tommy mask' so to speak. But that's all it was, a clever SF storytelling mask, he's not like, *actually* Tommy. So yes, sometimes that results in multiple actors playing a single character in one episode. It's still just one character (one person with one internal identity), with many faces, even if those faces are played by different actors.

Regardless of the main character photo being Traval, this happens all the time when characters are played by multiple actors, especially in SF shows where character's faces tend to get worn by other people, or shape-shifters, or cyborgs, or consciousnesses in other bodies, or even when actors are recast. When this happens I've been uploading images to the gallery that represent it, so if people go looking, they can see the character as played by various actors, but ideally we'd be able to tie a specific gallery image to a specific episode entry. Until we can, multiple pictures in the gallery, with the main image being the actor who is (in this case) 'the real face' not 'the mask face'.

So yes, Colin Donnell as Christopher Chance, because that's who he's playing, even if the external face is Tommy, it's still just Christopher Chance wearing a clever disguise.

But then what character do you list Donnell as playing? If you list him as "Christopher Chance" than Travel's face pops up. And they did the same storytelling schtick later in the episode with Chance as another character. So essentially, you have three times that the same photo of Travel-as-Chance appears. Twice overriding the photo of actor to show a different actor.

I'm not saying there is an answer, given the current system. Only noting the confusion that arises in that current system. it's great that we can have multiple picturea in the gallery, but a) how many people look at the character galleries?, b) without getting excessively wordy (which makes it less likely that people will look at the character gallery/bio and read it), there's not a way to explain why there are images of different actors, and c) it's great to talk about what the system could do, but it seems unlikely it will be changed to do that. Is it?

Gadfly wrote:
But then what character do you list Donnell as playing? If you list him as "Christopher Chance" than Travel's face pops up. And they did the same storytelling schtick later in the episode with Chance as another character. So essentially, you have three times that the same photo of Travel-as-Chance appears. Twice overriding the photo of actor to show a different actor.

Image issues aside (because that's something we're unlikely to solve/change right here, right now). The fact is, Donnell was playing Christopher Chance wearing a 'Tommy mask'. He wasn't playing the real Tommy. Yes, obviously that causes image conflicts, and its annoying that Traval's face pops up multiple times in the listing, but that doesn't override the fact that Donnell wasn't playing OG Tommy. OG Tommy Merlyn was not in that episode, Colin Donnell was, so IMO, you should represent that Donnell was in the episode (as Chance), but OG Tommy Merlyn (the character) was not. If you list him as OG Tommy, just so the right image pops up, surely that's saying (incorrectly) that OG Tommy was in that ep, and he wasn't.

As for 'explaining why', is it really so complex we'd need to explain it? If you watch the show/episode, you're going to understand the situation and the image conflict. If you visit the actor page (and don't watch the show), all you're going to see is that Donnell played multiple characters on one show.

Maybe, until an image solution is found, in cases like this, there could be no character image? That way the image on the episode page would default back to the actor image from their main page. It's obviously not ideal, but it would at least sidestep the current image conflict. It wouldn't be a character face, but it would at least be the right actor face?

I don't know what "OG" means.

How the show handles it isn't complex: how TVMaze does seems to require explanation, yes. It doesn't seem very... intuitive.

Part of the confusion arises because the second character that Christopher Chance plays (Judge McGarvey) is only credited to the "real" actor, Gaalen Engen. So if Engen is credited only to the character Chance impersonates, shouldn't Donnell be as well? Or does TVMaze disregard the official SAG credits?

(Among CW shows, Arrow at least credits the co-stars by actor/character name, but the "guest" actors as only actor name. How Donnell would be credited if the show gave the character names with the Guest Star actors is left to the imagination, but it's difficult to believe it would differ from the co-star credits. )

Not to mention that Engen plays both the "real" version of McGarvey and the Chance-disguise version. But only the real version is credited onscreen. But Wil Trava is credited. In this case, the character is uncredited. Do we list Engen as McGarvey as Credited, and Chance-as-McGarvey (played by Engen) as Uncredited? I thought Uncredited was for when the actor is uncredited, but in this case the latter character is uncredited. Or does TVMaze omit listing the character twice, even though they are "real" and "disguise"/alternate characters?

Gadfly wrote:
I don't know what "OG" means.

Sorry, that was my way of trying to easily differentiate between Actual Tommy Merlyn and Not Tommy Merlyn (obviously it wasn't easier). OG means Original Gangster. :)

If Engen plays both Real McGarvey and Chance-McGarvey, but is only credited as Real McGarvey in the co-star credits, then obviously that needs to be listed, I wasn't aware that was in dispute? But Chance-McGarvey is just Chance played by Engen, so that would be Engen uncredited as specifically playing Chance (even though he's credited as playing Real McGarvey). So, Chance is played by multiple actors in one episode, it's annoying as hell, but it is still one singular character, with multiple actors listed to one character entry. The difference here being, Real McGarvey is in the episode, Real Tommy is not. Which is why you can credit Real McGarvey, and not Real Tommy.

Isn't this basically the same conflict that exists when say, a main cast member plays another one-off minor character in an episode. We don't list the one-off minor character as being a 'main character' even though it's played by a main cast member, so it (if I remember correctly), it's listed as either guest cast or uncredited. Even though they technically aren't credited as such, it's just the best way to represent accurate information within the boundaries of TVMaze's system.

Any system have its limitations, so you just have to come to terms with the fact that TVmaze crediting system is not fit for the cases like this. At least not in the way that would allow to separate multiple "identities" of the single character without having either a wrong photo, or creating some make-believe "placeholder" characters in the Uncredited section.

Unless we have the ability to link the character's photo to the actor portraying it (for multiple actors-single character cases), the mess is inevitable.

And for the record, I think it's ok with Colin Donnell listed as Tommy Merlyn, even if it's not really "real" Tommy. At least everybody else (including himself) calling him that, while he's wearing Tommy's face. But listing him as Chance would also be correct. Obviously there's pros and cons to any solution that may be applied within the current TVmaze crediting system, but that's the only system we have for now, with no indications that it'll be changed any time soon (if ever).

The issue isn't me coming to terms with it, it's other contributors coming to terms with it and not changing it to another "correct" way. :) Or vice versa.

I'll settle for a system that is the most intuitive and looks like it makes the most sense. Having a picture of Christopher Chance for characters credited to Colin Donnell and Gaalen Engen just makes for a weird/ugly viewing.

Delenn wrote:
Sorry, that was my way of trying to easily differentiate between Actual Tommy Merlyn and Not Tommy Merlyn (obviously it wasn't easier). OG means Original Gangster. :)

If Engen plays both Real McGarvey and Chance-McGarvey, but is only credited as Real McGarvey in the co-star credits, then obviously that needs to be listed, I wasn't aware that was in dispute? But Chance-McGarvey is just Chance played by Engen, so that would be Engen uncredited as specifically playing Chance (even though he's credited as playing Real McGarvey). So, Chance is played by multiple actors in one episode, it's annoying as hell, but it is still one singular character, with multiple actors listed to one character entry. The difference here being, Real McGarvey is in the episode, Real Tommy is not. Which is why you can credit Real McGarvey, and not Real Tommy.

Isn't this basically the same conflict that exists when say, a main cast member plays another one-off minor character in an episode. We don't list the one-off minor character as being a 'main character' even though it's played by a main cast member, so it (if I remember correctly), it's listed as either guest cast or uncredited. Even though they technically aren't credited as such, it's just the best way to represent accurate information within the boundaries of TVMaze's system.

If Colin Donnell is listed as Chance rather than Tommy, it would bring into dispute if Gaalen Engen is listed as Real-McGarvey or Chance-McGarvey, or both. Thus my question.

Actually McGarvey is in the episode as two separate characters: Real-McGarvey and Chance-McGarvey. Which returns to my earlier point: he's only credited as the former. So should he get an Uncredited role as Chance-McGarvey?

Since Colin Donnell would only be listed once no matter whether he is listed as Chance or Tommy, it doesn't seem to be the same conflict as a main star's second-role as a one-shot guest/uncredited character. Donnell's role is a single role and he's credited (as a Special Guest Star, no less). It's just a question of which "role" he's considered to be playing.

Gadfly wrote:
The issue isn't me coming to terms with it, it's other contributors coming to terms with it and not changing it to another "correct" way. :) Or vice versa.

I'll settle for a system that is the most intuitive and looks like it makes the most sense. Having a picture of Christopher Chance for characters credited to Colin Donnell and Gaalen Engen just makes for a weird/ugly viewing.

By "you" I mean not you personally, but anyone concerned :) As I've said before, there's more than one "correct" way, and who it is to say, which way is more "correct"?

The fact that the system is now supporting only one main image for the multi-actor character doesn't mean, that adding multiple actors to a single character is not correct. It's just revealing one of the system's weaknesses, which could be improved over the time.

Since I didn't say "you", and I did say, "it's other contributors", yes, that would be anyone concerned. :)

Given all the things that we've said on TVMaze that are more "correct", I'd say "we" (or some subdivision thereof) are the ones to to say. which way is more correct.

As for the rest, I don't know what you're saying. Simply put: which way do you use?

Gadfly wrote:
Since I didn't say "you", and I did say, "it's other contributors", yes, that would be anyone concerned. :)

Given all the things that we've said on TVMaze that are more "correct", I'd say "we" (or some subdivision thereof) are the ones to to say. which way is more correct.

As for the rest, I don't know what you're saying. Simply put: which way do you use?

In this particular situation I would be adding Donnell as Tommy. But if someone were added him as Chance I wouldn't argue, because it would be also correct. He's like 50/50 Tommy and Chance IMO :)

Since none of this is covered in policy or any other written rules, it's just one personal opinion against another. Both options (Donnell = Tommy and Donnell = Chance) have pros and cons.

Fair enough. Although I'm not trying to pit personal opinions against each other. If we all had the same opinion, a consensus wouldn't be necessary. :)

Me personally, I don't care what method is used as long as a) we're consistent, b) we're not causing weird/confusing cast pages for episodes or actors, and c) we're not getting into edit wars.

For what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much :) , IMDB lists him as "Tommy Merlyn".

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4542042/

That in part is why I have concerns about calling him Christopher Chance. Spoilers and weird images aside, I think a large % of contributors think of the character as "Tommy Merlyn". Part of that is the promo, which doesn't give away that it's really Chance. And people contribute based on the promo without watching the show. I think if the character name was given here as Chance, someone would change it to Tommy. I definitely agree that factually, the character is Chance. But to me that seems more... wiki-like than TV database-like.

It might be me looking for trouble, but a lot of the time you have to look for trouble to avoid it. :)

I can see the way this is going, we're going to list Donnell as playing Real Tommy, even though (as stated) that's factually inaccurate. Even if IMDB (whichisn't exactly the most reliable source) says Tommy. We know he's not Real Tommy, we've all admitted we know that. I get it, this episode page would be complicated and not as visually pleasing as others if we listed him as Chance, but I still think that's the most accurate representation of information.

About the McGarvey & McGarvey-Chance thing, my argument still stands, he plays 2 characters and yes, he's only credited for one. Why wouldn't that make the second one uncredited? That's the very nature of uncredited, sometimes the actor is totally uncredited for any role, sometimes the actor goes uncredited/unacknowledged for playing more than one role.

At the end of the day, whatever way is decided for this particular episode, I won't personally be messing with it.

But this does highlight the wider (long-term) issues of a singular image being used to 'represent' characters when more and more these days are being played by multiple actors, and at what point it's justified to ignore/not credit the playing of 2 characters by one actor, if only one is explicitly credited.

I'm not suggesting we're doing it because of what IMDB says. I am noting that a good number of our contributors use it and similar sites that list Donnell as Tommy, and we'll be in a constant "struggle" to keep it factually accurate. Heck, either the importer or a contributor entered Donnell as Tommy Merlyn in the first place.

Also, while I mentioned "ugly", I used it in conjunction with "weird". I'm less concerned with the visual aesthetic, than that we'll be showing Wil Traval's image and Donnell's name, and WT's image and WT's name, and WT's image and Gaalen Engen's name. That seems to me weird, or confusing, or whatever you call it. I understand that's how the system works for displaying characters, but I fail to see why we can't come up with a policy that takes it into account. If the imaging changes down the road, we change the policy.

As far as the Uncredited issue, Engen is credited. It's the character (Chance-McGarvey) that is uncredited. That seems to be the inverse of what I thought Uncredited was for: to list actors as uncredited, not characters. But I could be wrong: was Uncredited intended to list characters as uncredited when the actors are credited?

As far as where it's going, me and tnt are only two people. I'd certainly welcome more input, and I don't think any two people should be deciding the matter. Even if I'm one of them. :)

Speaking of which, another question that maybe tnt can answer.

For Gotham, you listed Cameron Monaghon as credited for playing Jerome, and uncredited for playing his twin brother Jeremiah.

But.. there are no onscreen credits. So how did you did determine which one is credited? The one who has been on the show longer, Jerome? Fair enough But...

The reason I ask is that Jerome is dead. So I guess that makes Jeremiah the "credited" role. But Jerome is in the newest episode, in new "in case I die play this" video. So should that character now be listed as Uncredited? Then again, to confuse things even further, "Jerome" is actually a disguised Jeremiah. Maybe. There's one tape near the beginning that could be Jerome rather than Jeremiah.

Gadfly wrote:
As far as the Uncredited issue, Engen is credited. It's the character (Chance-McGarvey) that is uncredited. That seems to be the inverse of what I thought Uncredited was for: to list actors as uncredited, not characters. But I could be wrong: was Uncredited intended to list characters as uncredited when the actors are credited?

I think that is, by and large, what uncredited is used for. But as these things get more complex, shouldn't the uncredited system also be taking into account that sometimes actors are playing multiple roles in an episode, but are only credited for one?

To me this seems like an extension of what we already do for main/guest actors, who are (most often) credited without any character name attached, but maybe play the 'main character' role and then a 'minor/guest character' role. Say the situation that happened in the Arrow episodes with the Earth-X crossovers; Stephen Amell as Green Arrow in the Main Cast and Stephen Amell as Dark Arrow in the uncredited section. We acknowledge that yes, Stephen Amell is a main cast member, but that Stephen Amell as Dark Arrow doesn't belong in the main cast section. I seem to recall a thread discussing how/where we'd list that, since it doesn't technically "fit", but I can't find the thread right now.

Yep, I understand what you're saying. But my understanding was that it was a loophole of sorts because Amell isn't credited to any character. It's easy to recognize which character he plays every week, and which is a one-off.

Engen in this case is credited by character name. He's also not a main star: he's a very minor recurring role in his "real" role. And the character just died, so he presumably isn't going to show up again. :) Both of those factors combined make me think it's different than the Main Star/Imposer-Duplicate-Disguised-Whatever situation.

To take another example, there's the Star Trek episode "Whom Gods Destroy". I would never suggest that we create a Spock-Garth uncredited character, because Leonard Nimoy is clearly credited as a main star and Garth impersonates him for about five minutes, tops. But... Garth also impersonates Keye Luke's character Governor Cory. If we create two McGarvey's, it seems like we should create two entries for Keye Luke: "Governor Cory" and "Governor Cory/Garth". And which one is Credited and which one is Uncredited? (That kinda brings us back to the Gotham thing I mentioned above.)

We can still treat them the same. But expanding the definition of Uncredited requires that a) we figure out what the definition is, and b) how we're expanding it. Which is in large part why I posted here. So we could figure out how to do that, or even figure out if we needed to figure it out. :)

Those are all valid points. I think I just slightly disagree with your interpretation.

& you wouldn't be creating 2 McGarvey entries, you'd be creating the co-star Engen as McGarvey (Real McGarvey) entry as seen in the end credits, and then adding an uncredited entry of Engen as Chance to the existing Chance character entry. If I remember Whom Gods Destroy accurately, it's been a while since I subjected myself to Shatner, the same would apply there. There'd be one Garth character entry (with the credited actor credited as is proper), but with multiple other actors attached, reflecting that multiple actors did perform that role in an "uncredited/unacknowledged" capacity during that episode. So your example, Keye Luke as an actor would be attached to the Governor Cory character and the the Garth character. I'm not suggesting a third hybrid character entry (that's bonkers). Does that make sense?

Arguably, which is which (as mentioned above re: Gotham) would best be determined by actually watching the episode/having knowledge of it. Sometimes you really do just have to have an understanding of the show and make the best/most accurate decision given the system we have here.

It's definitely getting progressively more complex, and more frequent, than it has been in the past. I would imagine, in the interests of maintaining accuracy/consistency with these sorts of things, at some point the definitions of uncredited and the way we handle these things in general is going to have to be looked at, & a decision made one way or the other.

Gadfly wrote:
Speaking of which, another question that maybe tnt can answer.

For Gotham, you listed Cameron Monaghon as credited for playing Jerome, and uncredited for playing his twin brother Jeremiah.

But.. there are no onscreen credits. So how did you did determine which one is credited? The one who has been on the show longer, Jerome? Fair enough But...

The reason I ask is that Jerome is dead. So I guess that makes Jeremiah the "credited" role. But Jerome is in the newest episode, in new "in case I die play this" video. So should that character now be listed as Uncredited? Then again, to confuse things even further, "Jerome" is actually a disguised Jeremiah. Maybe. There's one tape near the beginning that could be Jerome rather than Jeremiah.

Easy-peasy :)

If on-screen credits is unclear or not enough, we could turn to the next best source, which would be an episode press-release. In this case the episode press-release says "Cameron Monaghan as Jerome Valeska", which makes the Jeremiah role an uncredited one. The press-release for the episode 4x20 also says "Cameron Monaghan as Jerome Valeska". But for the next episode, 4x21, we have "Cameron Monaghan as Jeremiah Valeska", which making Jerome uncredited one (if he will be appearing) :)