Dual Identies, Parallel Worlds, Disguise, Etc. (possible spoilers)

As I noted, Jerome kinda appears, and kinda doesn't. Although I thought the episode credits had precedence over the press releases. So... Cameron Monaghon is credited in the episode, but he isn't in the press release, so we list him as Uncredited for one role? Granted, he doesn't have two on-screen edits, because that's primarily how the SAG rolls these days.

But anyhoo, that and the Arrow thing raise the question: what if the intent is to make it seem like such and such a character is in the episode, when they really aren't. I both cases, you have to get 2/3rds through the episode to find out that it's a fakeout.

Or in other words, is there effectively a difference between Jerome-Jerome, and Jeremiah-Pretending-To-Be-Jerome? And if there is, couldn't it be explained in the character bio (i.e., "In a later episode, Christopher Chance posed as Tommy Merlyn.")

Delenn wrote:
Those are all valid points. I think I just slightly disagree with your interpretation.

& you wouldn't be creating 2 McGarvey entries, you'd be creating the co-star Engen as McGarvey (Real McGarvey) entry as seen in the end credits, and then adding an uncredited entry of Engen as Chance to the existing Chance character entry. If I remember Whom Gods Destroy accurately, it's been a while since I subjected myself to Shatner, the same would apply there. There'd be one Garth character entry (with the credited actor credited as is proper), but with multiple other actors attached, reflecting that multiple actors did perform that role in an "uncredited/unacknowledged" capacity during that episode. So your example, Keye Luke as an actor would be attached to the Governor Cory character and the the Garth character. I'm not suggesting a third hybrid character entry (that's bonkers). Does that make sense?

Arguably, which is which (as mentioned above re: Gotham) would best be determined by actually watching the episode/having knowledge of it. Sometimes you really do just have to have an understanding of the show and make the best/most accurate decision given the system we have here.

It's definitely getting progressively more complex, and more frequent, than it has been in the past. I would imagine, in the interests of maintaining accuracy/consistency with these sorts of things, at some point the definitions of uncredited and the way we handle these things in general is going to have to be looked at, & a decision made one way or the other.

I'm not interpreting it that way, so it's not surprising you disagree with my interpretation. :) I don't agree with that interpretation.

I don't think I've ever said that we create a third hybrid entry. I think the confusion is in trying to explain something in writing without writing a novel. Like you, I'd say that if we go that route, we list Engen and Luke twice, once as themselves and once as their imposter. But we're giving Engen and Luke credits they don't have onscreen, and calling it Uncredited. That to me seems to be stretching/altering the definition of Uncredited. We're not trying to document the "reality" of some weird SAG decision ("Yeah, Bruce Willis is in that episode, but he, the casting people, and/or the SAG decided he shouldn't be listed"), we're using it for the reality that we're creating, to overcome gaps in our system.

It seems to me that we could handle it by using Character Bios, either for the imposter ("While at Elba, Garth impersonated Governor Kory and Spock"), or the imposted ("While in confinement, Garth impersonated Governor Kory.") But since we figure (correctly) that most people don't read the character bios, we're trying to go with a direct episode-related way to relate the info.

Again, I don't consider it official or binding in any way. But IMDB doesn't do all this creating of uncrediteds for imposters and such. And they seem to be doing pretty well. It's factually incorrect if we list Colin Donnell as Tommy Merlyn. But I think that if we did so, we'd be speaking a... "language of TV reality" (to get all artsy-fartsy :) ) that most people understand.

SAG = Screen Actors Guild

Gadfly wrote:
As I noted, Jerome kinda appears, and kinda doesn't. Although I thought the episode credits had precedence over the press releases. So... Cameron Monaghon is credited in the episode, but he isn't in the press release, so we list him as Uncredited for one role? Granted, he doesn't have two on-screen edits, because that's primarily how the SAG rolls these days.

Where did I say that press-release have precedence over on-screen data? You have a weird habit to twist other people's words :)

On-screen you have only Monaghan's name. The press release gives you a character's name. There's no "precedence" of one over another, because character's name do not exist in on-screen data. But you could combine the two data sources, to know, which character he is credited for on-screen.

If the actor credited on-screen, but not mentioned in press release, of course he should be considered as credited. But for which character – that's for contributor's to find out. If you're not able to do this, you could always add TBD character, to be resolved later by someone else.

If anyone is using a press release as opposed to the onscreen credits to make a determination, that would be giving the press release precedence. Or priority. Or whatever term you wish to use. That's me saying "precedence", not you. :) If I was saying you said it, I would have put it in quotations because it was a quote.

The question isn't what name to give the character, which is what TBD is for in this instance. Isn't it? Even if someone listed Monaghan as TBD for his character, they'd still have to choose Credited or Uncredited. According to the onscreen credits, is Monaghan credited or uncredited?

"But you could combine the two data sources, to know, which character he is credited for on-screen."

If he's credited as Guest Star, why can't he be Credited for more than one character?

To me, the contradiction arises in Data Policies:

http://www.tvmaze.com/faq/16/episode-extras

Where the heading is Guest Cast, but then switches to, "If a character does appear in a certain episode but is specifically not credited for it, the "Uncredited" type can be used." Character isn't Cast, Characters aren't credited, cast are.

If the Data Policy said "If a cast member does appear in a certain episode...", would you do it differently? If so, how?

I'm not sure if such a change would resolve my question about Monaghan. Nor am I suggesting such a change. But it appears to be a contributing factor.

"If the actor credited on-screen, but not mentioned in press release, of course he should be considered as credited. But for which character – that's for contributor's to find out. If you're not able to do this, you could always add TBD character, to be resolved later by someone else."

Do you do this when a press release doesn't mention an actor credited on screen? If not, how do you find out when you can't? And who is the "someone else" who resolves it, and how do they resolve it?

For instance, the Westworld HBO press releases don't identify actors or characters. But it does some of the same "same actor/multiple roles thing". So for instance, is Jeffrey Wright uncredited as Arnold? And where would one add TBD as you suggest?

IMO, whatever means we use to resolve situations that aren't covered by the press release should be used consistently all the time even when there are press releases.

Gadfly wrote:
IMO, whatever means we use to resolve situations that aren't covered by the press release should be used consistently all the time even when there are press releases.

If by "consistent" you mean the same way to do this every time, than there's no consistent way to do this. Never was, never will be. There's ways, different for each show, each actor, each network and so on. There's number of places you could find the character's name, even if it was never spoken or used in any way in the episode. Such as: official episode recap, SDH subtitles, actor's filmographies, social network accounts of cast/crew members etc. There's a lot of examples, when the character were appearing in 5-6 episodes in row, and his name became known only in the latest episode.

I'm out of this discussion. I'm tired of you playing with words and twisting my answers in some stupid way. If you do not want to comprehend, what I'm trying to say, I would better spend my time on contributing, instead of the pointless discussion. Good luck finding your answer, even if it is already in the plain sight :)

Maybe I'm just being reductive, but I'd say in this case just credit them as the character they're playing overall without any alternates like as a character playing another... Regardless of it being Colin playing Tommy or Chance as Tommy, the end result is Tommy, doing multiple stuff for a character pretending to be another would just seem like adding complication for the sake of complication. Understanding the circumstances of the plot are up to the viewers and not really a credit issue and the only people who will care about these things are the people who watch the shows, and if they watch the shows they'll know what's going on.

kevin87 wrote:
Maybe I'm just being reductive, but I'd say in this case just credit them as the character they're playing overall without any alternates like as a character playing another... Regardless of it being Colin playing Tommy or Chance as Tommy, the end result is Tommy, doing multiple stuff for a character pretending to be another would just seem like adding complication for the sake of complication. Understanding the circumstances of the plot are up to the viewers and not really a credit issue and the only people who will care about these things are the people who watch the shows, and if they watch the shows they'll know what's going on.

+1

I just think it's odd to list a guest star that is credited as Uncredited. If TVMaze can list an actor multiple times for one episode, then I figure that was deliberate and it's a feature, not a bug. So... if they're guest-star credited, guest-star credit them for each charcter they played, even if the episode doesn't. That way, the TVMaze credits match the onscreen credits.