@JuanArango wrote:
yes, but if there is no press release or anything else, who decides which character to add as main or not? This is impossible to put into a policy as everyone will have a different opinion :)
So what's happened with South Park then, the voices are credited the same as the Simpsons, four main cast members:
https://www.southparkstudios.co.uk/legal/tkdxo6/cast-and-crew
I am aware that the US site may say something different but my phone is geo locked.
@TomSouthwell wrote:
So what's happened with South Park then, the voices are credited the same as the Simpsons, four main cast members:https://www.southparkstudios.co.uk/legal/tkdxo6/cast-and-crew
I am aware that the US site may say something different but my phone is geo locked.
Could be that south Park also has to be looked into.
@LadyShelley wrote:
I think part of the confusion is the voice actors voicing multiple characters per episode. I'm willing to bet a lot of the issues with something like The Simpsons is Dan Castellaneta voicing Homer, as well as two or three other characters. Since Dan is a main voice actor, all of the characters were added as a main as well, regardless of how prominent the second (or third or fourth) character was in the episode.So I think what @TomSouthwell is asking for is some direction on what to do for these old animated shows where there is no press release or any other information except what might or might not be listed on screen as well as some directed policy for current animated shows as to what is a main vs supporting/guest character (not voice actor) so there is better consistency.
So surely something like this needs to be put into policy. That's now two animated series that we know of that aren't following the current policy, yet have users regularily contributing the cast to them.
@TomSouthwell wrote:
So surely something like this needs to be put into policy. That's now two animated series that we know of that aren't following the current policy, yet have users regularily contributing the cast to them.
Just out of curiosity, what exactly needs to be put in the policy in your opinion? How we should determine the main/guest cast in animated shows like The Simpsons or South Park?
@tnt wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what exactly needs to be put in the policy in your opinion? How we should determine the main/guest cast in animated shows like The Simpsons or South Park?
Maybe not putting into policy but these guides aren't adhering to any current policy and there's hundreds of episodes that now need looking at.
@JuanArango has said obvious supporting roles shouldn't be added as starring characters, such as Worker 1 etc, but following the current policy they would need adding as stars if the press release said so.
I guess the whole thing seems really messy because of how the shows are crediting people.
South Park is at one extreme were show stars are added as guests and The Simpsons is at the other extreme.
@TomSouthwell wrote:
Maybe not putting into policy but these guides aren't adhering to any current policy and there's hundreds of episodes that now need looking at.@JuanArango has said obvious supporting roles shouldn't be added as starring characters, such as Worker 1 etc, but following the current policy they would need adding as stars if the press release said so.
How do you define "supporting role"? Ok, it may be clear for "Worker 1", but how about "Worker Joe"? Is he supporting or not?
The character may appear in a single episode, but this whole episode could be centered around this particular character. Does this leave him supporting? This is not rare in scripted shows, especially in the UK- and Australian-made, where the actor could appear in a single episode but still will be listed along with the main cast.
On the downside, the significance of the role and character could be very subjective. And this is bad because any subjective evaluation potentially leading to edit conflicts, where one person would say the role is supporting, and the other would consider it principal for this particular episode or story arc.
I guess the whole thing seems really messy because of how the shows are crediting people.
Considering this ^^^ I have a serious doubt that we could invent some set of rules (better than existing ones) which successfully cover all possibilities.
South Park is at one extreme were show stars are added as guests and The Simpsons is at the other extreme.
I don't know if our records of South Park are correct, but if they are for me it seems absolutely logical that we have only four boys as the main cast because they are the only characters who appeared in every episode of the show, and each one of them has 5 times more appearances than any other character of the show. And even in the official character guide they are listed separately from everyone else https://www.southparkstudios.com/wiki/List_of_Characters
So this may be not entirely correct, but at least it seems consistent and logical. Which is the best we could hope for I suppose.
@tnt wrote:
How do you define "supporting role"? Ok, it may be clear for "Worker 1", but how about "Worker Joe"? Is he supporting or not?
The character may appear in a single episode, but this whole episode could be centered around this particular character. Does this leave him supporting? This is not rare in scripted shows, especially in the UK- and Australian-made, where the actor could appear in a single episode but still will be listed along with the main cast.
Do we not list a character who's credited as a star as a star even if they only appear in one episode or two? For example the Superman animated series I linked to, numerous supporting characters appear as guests throughout most of the series run, but also make appearances were they are credited as stars of episodes, which I've added them to as stars.
On the downside, the significance of the role and character could be very subjective. And this is bad because any subjective evaluation potentially leading to edit conflicts, where one person would say the role is supporting, and the other would consider it principal for this particular episode or story arc.
Considering this ^^^ I have a serious doubt that we could invent some set of rules (better than existing ones) which successfully cover all possibilities.
I don't know if our records of South Park are correct, but if they are for me it seems absolutely logical that we have only four boys as the main cast because they are the only characters who appeared in every episode of the show, and each one of them has 5 times more appearances than any other character of the show. And even in the official character guide they are listed separately from everyone else https://www.southparkstudios.com/wiki/List_of_Characters
So this may be not entirely correct, but at least it seems consistent and logical. Which is the best we could hope for I suppose.
But then is that not the same for The Simpsons, just having the main family as the stars and every over role as supporting? I don't really understand the difference, the two female cast members are credited as show stars in South Park, so either they should be added as stars for the roles they portray (like we are doing for the Simpsons) or The Simpsons needs looking at as to who we are identifying as starring characters and why.
We should definitely have some consistency here, at first glance the easiest way for me is to treat The Simpsons and other similar animated shows like we treat South Park. Unless we have press releases of course.
@TomSouthwell wrote:
Do we not list a character who's credited as a star as a star even if they only appear in one episode or two? For example the Superman animated series I linked to, numerous supporting characters appear as guests throughout most of the series run, but also make appearances were they are credited as stars of episodes, which I've added them to as stars.
I thought we were talking about the shows which not credit characters, only actors. We know the show's main cast. But only actors, not characters. The problem is to determine, which character to list for each of the show stars in the main cast section, if each of them voicing several characters, and we have no information about that from official sources.
But then is that not the same for The Simpsons, just having the main family as the stars and every over role as supporting? I don't really understand the difference, the two female cast members are credited as show stars in South Park, so either they should be added as stars for the roles they portray (like we are doing for the Simpsons) or The Simpsons needs looking at as to who we are identifying as starring characters and why.
We have press-releases for Simpsons, which list a set of particular characters as main. I couldn't find any press-releases or other sources of information, which explain which characters should be considered main for South Park. The four boys seem like an obvious choice for Trey Parker and Matt Stone, but it's not so easy for the rest of the voice cast.
To be clear, I'm not editing The Simpsons nor the South Park. All questions about why it listed this way and not the other you need to ask users who edited those shows. I can only offer you a possible explanation, and the way how I would've solved this problem using only the current policy.
@JuanArango wrote:
We should definitely have some consistency here
But we can't. I mean, we can have consistency inside one particular show, but we won't be able to keep it consistent through all animated shows. Because the information we have is not consistent. For some shows, you would have clear on-screen credits. For some, you would have press-releases or character guides. But for some you would have only a list of voice actors.
at first glance the easiest way for me is to treat The Simpsons and other similar animated shows like we treat South Park. Unless we have press releases of course.
Yes. Unless.
@tnt wrote:
I thought we were talking about the shows which not credit characters, only actors. We know the show's main cast. But only actors, not characters. The problem is to determine, which character to list for each of the show stars in the main cast section, if each of them voicing several characters, and we have no information about that from official sources.We have press-releases for Simpsons, which list a set of particular characters as main. I couldn't find any press-releases or other sources of information, which explain which characters should be considered main for South Park. The four boys seem like an obvious choice for Trey Parker and Matt Stone, but it's not so easy for the rest of the voice cast.
To be clear, I'm not editing The Simpsons nor the South Park. All questions about why it listed this way and not the other you need to ask users who edited those shows. I can only offer you a possible explanation, and the way how I would've solved this problem using only the current policy.
Is their not various users editing The Simpsons though which is why we keep having conflicts in edit requests.
I don't understand why we wouldnt list the female cast members of South Park as stars if the on screen data credits them as stars. I also don't believe enough people care enough about the data to be consistent to warrant needing this to go on and on :). It seems like only 4 of us have weighed in with an opinion. If the consensus is to just leave the guides as is, then we can do that. I don't particularly want to sift through 700+ press releases. I just found it odd that these shows have users who've obviously interpreted the policies differently and noone is questioning it.
I just re-read the Show Extras policy and it looks clear to me and it's at the top of the page and lists everything in a numbered list. I think the problem with inconsistencies is people laziness to actually read the policy before making changes they think are correct. The only solution I can think of is to flag the people who make changes not in-line with policy and remove their ability to edit until they actually read said policy. Because I don't think that any changes made to the policy will change anything if people don't read it.
I just found it odd that these shows have users who've obviously interpreted the policies differently and noone is questioning it.
@TomSouthwell, well you did question it and brought it to other people's attention.
@TomSouthwell wrote:
I don't understand why we wouldnt list the female cast members of South Park as stars if the on screen data credits them as stars.
Ok, let's take Shannen Cassidy, for example. Among 20+ characters she voiced, 11 appeared in more than 1 episode, and 6 appeared in more than 10 episodes. So which of her characters would you add to the main cast? And, more importantly, why them? Based on what?
I understand why the four boys were added to the main cast. But I don't have the slightest idea, how to choose which characters add to the main cast for the rest of the stars.
@tnt wrote:
Ok, let's take Shannen Cassidy, for example. Among 20+ characters she voiced, 11 appeared in more than 1 episode, and 6 appeared in more than 10 episodes. So which of her characters would you add to the main cast? And, more importantly, why them? Based on what?I understand why the four boys were added to the main cast. But I don't have the slightest idea, how to choose which characters add to the main cast for the rest of the stars.
I understand your points, but then in argument for the huge list of stars for The Simpsons. If Comedy Central had a press release saying all 20+ characters were stars of those episodes, even if the character appeared once, then what would we be doing?
On screen data trumps any press releases, so surely some or all of these characters need to be starting and not guest stars.
@TomSouthwell wrote:
I understand your points, but then in argument for the huge list of stars for The Simpsons. If Comedy Central had a press release saying all 20+ characters were stars of those episodes, even if the character appeared once, then what would we be doing?
Following the press release, obviously, in the absence of usable on-screen data. Honestly, I don't care, how many entries are in the cast, 4 or 40, as long as it is consistent throughout all episodes of the show.
On screen data trumps any press releases, so surely some or all of these characters need to be starting and not guest stars.
In both Simpsons and South Park on-screen data is useless because it doesn't have the character names. Yes, it would tell you, which actors are the main stars. But you cannot add an actor without a character.
It feels like we're going in circles.
@tnt wrote:
Following the press release, obviously, in the absence of usable on-screen data. Honestly, I don't care, how many entries are in the cast, 4 or 40, as long as it is consistent throughout all episodes of the show.In both Simpsons and South Park on-screen data is useless because it doesn't have the character names. Yes, it would tell you, which actors are the main stars. But you cannot add an actor without a character.
It feels like we're going in circles.
Actually, I think you both are saying the same thing: There is an issue with a main voice actor, voicing several characters within an episode, and all of those extraneous characters are treated the same, regardless of their importance, based on the actor's crediting and not the character's. The question is, what, if anything, can be done about it? (and maybe the answer is ... nothing. We do the best we can with the information we have, which sometimes ain't a lot.)
Dan Castellaneta is a main cast voice actor. Should all of the characters he voices receive starring crediting as well? Do we base the credits on the character's importance or the actor's?
This is an issue that seems fairly limited to animated series', so does there need to be some sort of specific policy regarding the funky crediting for these shows? (Question: Is this exclusively an American-produced animation problem or is it worldwide?)
I think once we have an answer, and these shows are sorted, they would be good candidates for the data locking David has mentioned. No sense in hashing all of this out, only for someone else to come along and "help" later.
@LadyShelley wrote:
Actually, I think you both are saying the same thing: There is an issue with a main voice actor, voicing several characters within an episode, and all of those extraneous characters are treated the same, regardless of their importance, based on the actor's crediting and not the character's. The question is, what, if anything, can be done about it? (and maybe the answer is ... nothing. We do the best we can with the information we have, which sometimes ain't a lot.)
My point exactly. I don't see what could be done, except making a separate decision for each particular show.
Or change a system, so animated shows do not have a main/guest separation.
Dan Castellaneta is a main cast voice actor. Should all of the characters he voices receive starring crediting as well? Do we base the credits on the character's importance or the actor's?
How can we define a "character's importance," based on what criteria? A number of lines? Appearance count? Impact on a story? It's rather easy when it's something obvious, like the four boys in South Park, but check my example with Shannen Cassidy above. How do you choose a character(s) for her?
This is an issue that seems fairly limited to animated series', so does there need to be some sort of specific policy regarding the funky crediting for these shows? (Question: Is this exclusively an American-produced animation problem or is it worldwide?)
I don't know about it worldwide, but anime for example usually have decent on-screen credits and a website with a list of main characters. Russian animation of the Soviet/post-Soviet era usually (not always though) gives standard actor-character credits, but rarely has a main/guest separation.
I think the one thing most of them have in common - they do not have a clear on-screen indication of the main characters. You have to dig through alternative data sources to find out, who should be added to the show's main cast.
@tnt wrote:
My point exactly. I don't see what could be done, except making a separate decision for each particular show.Or change a system, so animated shows do not have a main/guest separation.
How can we define a "character's importance," based on what criteria? A number of lines? Appearance count? Impact on a story? It's rather easy when it's something obvious, like the four boys in South Park, but check my example with Shannen Cassidy above. How do you choose a character(s) for her?
I guess the characters that would primarily interact with the four boys. The mothers/Wendy? But that's just how I would do it and I do again understand what you're saying.
I don't know about it worldwide, but anime for example usually have decent on-screen credits and a website with a list of main characters. Russian animation of the Soviet/post-Soviet era usually (not always though) gives standard actor-character credits, but rarely has a main/guest separation.
I think the one thing most of them have in common - they do not have a clear on-screen indication of the main characters. You have to dig through alternative data sources to find out, who should be added to the show's main cast.
All of the Modern Marvel animations have full credits except for the shorts, which normally also get packaged together and run as a full episode with credits as well.
Alot of DC animations from the 90s also have cast and guest cast seperations.
But then for arguments sake my 2 year old is obsessed with Shaun the Sheep and Timmy Time, both of which just credit "Voices of" and the 3 actors that provide the voices for the whole series.
@TomSouthwell wrote:
All of the Modern Marvel animations have full credits except for the shorts, which normally also get packaged together and run as a full episode with credits as well.
Not sure how credits like this would help you separate main and guest cast https://i.imgur.com/nUbRatO.png
As far as I can tell this is a standard credit format for contemporary Marvel animations. Spider-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy etc.
Alot of DC animations from the 90s also have cast and guest cast seperations.
Random check:
The New Batman Adventures list all actors as "Starring the Voices of", on the first screen you would have Batman, Robin and 1-2 episode-specific characters, and on the second screen everybody else https://i.imgur.com/OsmMkhi.png
Batman: The Animated Series, however, have this crystal clear https://i.imgur.com/3YP2Fux.png
But then for arguments sake my 2 year old is obsessed with Shaun the Sheep and Timmy Time, both of which just credit "Voices of" and the 3 actors that provide the voices for the whole series.
And this is the most common situation with your typical Cartoon Network/Nickelodeon animated series. With some exceptions, however, like for example The Amazing World of Gumball, which lists the main cast and "other voices" https://i.imgur.com/LjFC82Y.png
@tnt wrote:
Not sure how credits like this would help you separate main and guest cast https://i.imgur.com/nUbRatO.png
As far as I can tell this is a standard credit format for contemporary Marvel animations. Spider-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy etc.
I was told when I asked to just credit the titular characters. As when I started working on the guides the latest Spider-Man guide had numerous cast members added as stars. The seperation comes as normally the Stars are at the top of the list and then the rest of the cast is listed in alphabetical order of their last names.
Random check:
The New Batman Adventures list all actors as "Starring the Voices of", on the first screen you would have Batman, Robin and 1-2 episode-specific characters, and on the second screen everybody else https://i.imgur.com/OsmMkhi.png
Batman: The Animated Series, however, have this crystal clear https://i.imgur.com/3YP2Fux.png
I haven't got as far as New Batman Adventures yet. But have been adding the credits to Batman The Animated Series using the distinction in the credits. Surely for New Batman, If Batman/Robin and the episode specific characters are listed on a seperate Credit screen, then those are the episode stars?
And this is the most common situation with your typical Cartoon Network/Nickelodeon animated series. With some exceptions, however, like for example The Amazing World of Gumball, which lists the main cast and "other voices" https://i.imgur.com/LjFC82Y.png
I did once poise the question of how we'd even begin crediting cast for Robot Chicken, since each episode features different characters, however some characters are regular, @JuanArango said at the time to just add the characters that do reoccur as show stars.
