Canadian Time Zones

Thanks for sharing your insights! Previous reference here: https://www.tvmaze.com/threads/488/canadian-shows-use-americastjohns-time-zone-instead-of-eastern-tz#5259

I'll reply in more detail as soon as I manage to comprehend this mess :-)

david wrote:
Thanks for sharing your insights! Previous reference here: https://www.tvmaze.com/threads/488/canadian-shows-use-americastjohns-time-zone-instead-of-eastern-tz#5259

I'll reply in more detail as soon as I manage to comprehend this mess :-)

If you have a few minutes, want a laugh, and you don't have a headache from the above ... read this section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJON-DT#Overnight_programming ... this is TV as it should be Lard tunderin' Jaysus! :)

Eastern is the most advertised time for TV programming. If you use that, other time zones will likely also show correct times. (Except Newfoundland, of course). :)

wmulder wrote:
Eastern is the most advertised time for TV programming. If you use that, other time zones will likely also show correct times. (Except Newfoundland, of course). :)

For cable or local stations (in the eastern time zone) yes, most programs would be covered ... but for programs on CBC, CTV, etc using just one time zone means 4 (4.5 in Newf) time zones will have the wrong data. There are many, many people who are cord cutters, or cord never weres, on basic cable or whose cable package doesn't include multi zoned stations. I don't know how the system works, but the ideal would be to set each station/network/channel on a case by case basis because, in Canada at least, one size doesn't fit all.

But a show at 8:00pm eastern in Toronto will be broadcast at 8:00pm mountain by an Edmonton affiliate and so on.

wmulder wrote:
But a show at 8:00pm eastern in Toronto will be broadcast at 8:00pm mountain by an Edmonton affiliate and so on.

I agree, but how it i working now is the time is hard coded to a timezone ... so, for example, Murdoch is set to air at 8pm Atlantic, which it does, but the system isn't adjusting across the country so in my calendar Murdoch shows as airing at 7pm, a hour ahead of the actual time ... and it gets worse the further west you go with Murdoch, I assume, never did a test to confirm, showing as airing at 4pm in BC. Apparently, if I understand correctly, all of Canada is set to have shows debut on Atlantic time ... even shows that originate in another timezone such as The Agenda on TVO which airs at 8pm ET / 9pm AT yet my calendar still shows it airing at 7pm based on a 8pm start in the Atlantic time zone ... which never, ever occurs.

So while I would be happy with ET being the standard for the country, those pesky folk in the other 5 time zones will, yet again, get mad at Toronto for being the center of the universe ... which we are by the way ... no bragging, just fact! ;)

Actually, while I hate to seriously say Toronto/Eastern Canada is the center of the universe ... the fact (real fact) is the vast majority of the population resides within the Eastern Time Zone. All four provinces in the Atlantic TZ have a combined population of under 2 million ... Metro Toronto alone has over 5 million ... add in Montreal, Quebec, Hull, Ottawa, Kingston, Oshawa, Barrie, Mississauga, Brampton, Kitchener, London, Windsor and all the other town and cities in the Eastern TZ and well over half the people are covered.

If worse case is you have to pick a time zone for the whole country, I would suggest Eastern since the majority of people would be handled accurately and a good hunk of other shows that air simultaneously across Canada (eg The Agenda, innerSPACE, Daily Planet, etc etc) are based on an eastern time start and therefore all people cross country would fall into place and have the accurate times based on their TZ settings. The majority of shows on broadcast TV, other than CBC, are American imports that air at the same time as the US networks in order to force the cable/satellite providers to SimSub (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_substitution) the signals so they wouldn't be affected anyways.

The ideal, IMHO, if to have each channel/network tied to a time zone rather than country wide ... except where a country is on one time zone in which it would obviously be easier to set once than many. I don't know how your DB works but I guess it would be a matter of having a setting for TZ that defaults to country time code unless overridden with a individual setting for different time zones. YMMV

While it doesn't account for every possible scenario in a country with multiple timezones, the idea behind our timezone system is pretty simple. We take the part of the country that (from a global observer's perspective, so not considering the local wall time) is the first one to broadcast new episodes. The timezone and premiere times corresponding to that part of the country is then used on TVmaze.

In America it's pretty straight forward and everyone understands that the Eastern times should be used, but despite your detailed explanation I still don't really comprehend why the Canadian situation is so much more confusing.

Can you help me answer this? If every Canadian citizen were to send me a message as soon as a new CTV/CBC episode starts airing on their TV (regardless of which channel/source it's from), whose message would I receive first and where do they live? (The current assumption is that this person lives in the Canada/Atlantic timezone)

david wrote:
While it doesn't account for every possible scenario in a country with multiple timezones, the idea behind our timezone system is pretty simple. We take the part of the country that (from a global observer's perspective, so not considering the local wall time) is the first one to broadcast new episodes. The timezone and premiere times corresponding to that part of the country is then used on TVmaze.

In America it's pretty straight forward and everyone understands that the Eastern times should be used, but despite your detailed explanation I still don't really comprehend why the Canadian situation is so much more confusing.

Can you help me answer this? If every Canadian citizen were to send me a message as soon as a new CTV/CBC episode starts airing on their TV (regardless of which channel/source it's from), whose message would I receive first and where do they live? (The current assumption is that this person lives in the Canada/Atlantic timezone)

The problem is that CTV/CBC and other broadcast networks account for much less than half of Canadian shows, other than CBC most Canadian networks fill their schedules heavily with US imports. A once size fits all for time zones means there will be many shows on cable being listed as starting, for example, at 8pm AT when in fact they all will start at 9pm AT. I am not aware of any cable channel that uses AT in their scheduling. Change CBC/CTV to any cable channel and you get a very different response.

I guess it comes down to the calendar. Using the AT as the standard means 2 million people have the correct time for a hand-full of shows on their calendars, and the wrong time for the rest ... and 35 million people have the wrong time in their calendar for virtually all the Canadian shows they follow.

This may become a bigger issue if/when the various US states looking at moving to AT actually in fact switch time zones. (https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2017/11/05/new-england-atlantic-time-zone or https://qz.com/1225654/daylight-saving-time-florida-wants-to-break-with-the-us-on-dst/)

EDIT: From "from a global observer's perspective" they too will have the wrong information for any shows on cable or local broadcast stations/networks.

I guess it just strikes me as very odd that I have the correct times in my calendar for shows in the US, the UK and Australia but shows from my own country are never listed at the correct time. :(

SilverSurfer, to clarify:

Is the issue that TVMaze uses Canada/Atlantic, but most (or all) networks don't use this, so when a show says it airing at 8pm, they're actually meaning in a timezone other than Canada/Atlantic and so when someone enters 8pm as the time into TVMaze, it's wrong?

gazza911 wrote:
SilverSurfer, to clarify:

Is the issue that TVMaze uses Canada/Atlantic, but most (or all) networks don't use this, so when a show says it airing at 8pm, they're actually meaning in a timezone other than Canada/Atlantic and so when someone enters 8pm as the time into TVMaze, it's wrong?

Yes and no. :)

Most shows on the broadcast networks, as far as I know, would use for example 8pm and the show would air in each TZ at 8pm.

But, again as far as I know, most all shows on cable or local broadcast stations/networks do not follow or use Atlantic time. Most use Eastern time as the standard and so advertise shows, as an example, 8e/5p or just 8et.

I don't know if you were about to suggest it, or it just occurred to me, to work around the problem adjust the times in the show entry (ie add 1 hr to all shows on cable). Then of course anyone looking at the entry directly rather than the calendar would notice an 'error' because few people give Atlantic start times a thought ... it's just not how TV works in the GWN ... it's very eastern time centric.

SilverSurfer wrote:
The problem is that CTV/CBC and other broadcast networks account for much less than half of Canadian shows, other than CBC most Canadian networks fill their schedules heavily with US imports. A once size fits all for time zones means there will be many shows on cable being listed as starting, for example, at 8pm AT when in fact they all will start at 9pm AT. I am not aware of any cable channel that uses AT in their scheduling. Change CBC/CTV to any cable channel and you get a very different response.

I guess it comes down to the calendar. Using the AT as the standard means 2 million people have the correct time for a hand-full of shows on their calendars, and the wrong time for the rest ... and 35 million people have the wrong time in their calendar for virtually all the Canadian shows they follow.

This may become a bigger issue if/when the various US states looking at moving to AT actually in fact switch time zones. (https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2017/11/05/new-england-atlantic-time-zone or https://qz.com/1225654/daylight-saving-time-florida-wants-to-break-with-the-us-on-dst/)

EDIT: From "from a global observer's perspective" they too will have the wrong information for any shows on cable or local broadcast stations/networks.

Don't jump to a conclusion too quickly :) If there's a way to translate this Canadian logic to regular logic, we can make the calendar work perfectly (provided you enable "display in my timezone") - regardless of what we chose as Canada's primary timezone.

Humor me with the answer to my question if you will. Who's the first to message me for a CTV show, who for a cable show, etc?

david wrote:
Don't jump to a conclusion too quickly :) If there's a way to translate this Canadian logic to regular logic, we can make the calendar work perfectly (provided you enable "display in my timezone") - regardless of what we chose as Canada's primary timezone.

Humor me with the answer to my question if you will. Who's the first to message me for a CTV show, who for a cable show, etc?

For CTV/CBC/Global for a show starting @ 8pm you will get emails from East Coasters (AT) @ 8pm AT.

For most cable and local stations a show starting at 8pm you will get emails from across the country, 9pm AT, 8pm ET, 7pm CT, 6pm MT & 5pm PT. I say most because a few cable channels still have east/west feeds but the most by far are a single feed country wide. We still have a few local stations/networks ... CHCH in Hamilton and TVO province wide come quickly to mind (both ET) ... there are others in other provinces I'd have to look up.

Feel free to ignore Newfoundland ... we do! :)

To translate Canadian, you need a touque, a plaid shirt, a brew, and a jelly eh ... gets you in the groove.

Don't a lot of cable networks have 2 feeds, one eastern and one western (pacific time zone)?

wmulder wrote:
Don't a lot of cable networks have 2 feeds, one eastern and one western (pacific time zone)?

Not in Canada. A few still do though, I'd have to look-up the full list as only a couple come to mind.

SilverSurfer wrote:
For CTV/CBC/Global for a show starting @ 8pm you will get emails from East Coasters (AT) @ 8pm AT.

For most cable and local stations a show starting at 8pm you will get emails from across the country, 9pm AT, 8pm ET, 7pm CT, 6pm MT & 5pm PT.

So indeed Atlantic is the timezone (sometimes among others) where new episodes premiere first. That's consistent with what we currently have: "Canada/Atlantic" as the country's primary timezone. (https://www.tvmaze.com/threads/488/canadian-shows-use-americastjohns-time-zone-instead-of-eastern-tz#5259)

That means the Atlantic time has to be used for all Canadian show & episode times. If you do that, I think everything should work properly, no? If you're in a different timezone than Atlantic but enable "show in my local timezone", it'll automatically convert it.

I think the confusion is caused by a misunderstanding of our "show in local timezone" feature, not by any Canada-specific issues. Let's take a United States show for comparison. America's Got Talent will premiere there tonight at 20:00/8PM in the Eastern timezone. If you set your timezone to the east-coast America/New_York, the episode will indeed show up at 20:00 in your calendar. However, if you change your timezone to the west-coast - say America/Phoenix - the episode will not remain listed as 20:00. Instead, it will show up as 17:00 because that's your local (wall) time in Phoenix when the episode gets its world premiere in the other half of the country.

david wrote:
So indeed Atlantic is the timezone (sometimes among others) where new episodes premiere first. That's consistent with what we currently have: "Canada/Atlantic" as the country's primary timezone. (https://www.tvmaze.com/threads/488/canadian-shows-use-americastjohns-time-zone-instead-of-eastern-tz#5259)

That means the Atlantic time has to be used for all Canadian show & episode times. If you do that, I think everything should work properly, no? If you're in a different timezone than Atlantic but enable "show in my local timezone", it'll automatically convert it.

I think the problem is only a small percentage of people in Canada think in terms of Atlantic time ... I think it's only about 5~6% of the population. To make this work we'd have to fiddle with almost all shows on cable/local to convert them to AT from ET (or whatever real timezone they are in). If someone comes to The Agenda page for example, and see's the time set to 9pm they'd likely correct it to 8pm not even thinking about AT since all advertising and references to the show are 8pm ... same with most shows on cable ... they almost always use ET in their advertising, listings and websites ... having to tack on a hour to make it work is going to confuse most people.

Oh well. If you are ever doing work on the system, please consider changing it so that each network or even each show, worldwide, can have their timezone set independently. Thanks for looking into it though, appreciate it.

SilverSurfer wrote:
I think the problem is only a small percentage of people in Canada think in terms of Atlantic time ... I think it's only about 5~6% of the population. To make this work we'd have to fiddle with almost all shows on cable/local to convert them to AT from ET (or whatever real timezone they are in). If someone comes to The Agenda page for example, and see's the time set to 9pm they'd likely correct it to 8pm not even thinking about AT since all advertising and references to the show are 8pm ... same with most shows on cable ... they almost always use ET in their advertising, listings and websites ... having to tack on a hour to make it work is going to confuse most people.

Oh well. If you are ever doing work on the system, please consider changing it so that each network or even each show, worldwide, can have their timezone set independently. Thanks for looking into it though, appreciate it.

Not just that - if we wanted to fully track this, each show and episode would have to have multiple timezones and airtimes set.. one for each of a country's timezones. I'm sorry to say that it would be unwise to get your hopes up.