BBC Wales drama series

fenlander wrote:
The BBC produces some dramas in 2 language versions - Welsh and English. Recent examples: Craith (Welsh) became Hidden (English - currently airing) and Un Bore Mercher (Welsh) became Keeping Faith (English). Because these are BBC Wales productions, the Welsh versions are aired in Wales weeks or months before the English language versions appears in the rest of the UK - and the rest of the non-Welsh speaking world.

They are listed on TV Maze under their Welsh titles and with Welsh schedules only, meaning that the English version - which is the one most people watch - is not locatable on TV Maze's Shows listing or trackable in the calendar.

Would it be possible to include the two versions as separate titles, each with its own scheduling information?

Just curious, is it the same show with dubbed voices? Do they shoot two different versions, one in each language?

SilverSurfer wrote:
Just curious, is it the same show with dubbed voices? Do they shoot two different versions, one in each language?

As far as Craith/Hidden goes, it's one Welsh speaking show, with English subtitles. As far as I'm aware, that's the standard protocol for S4C/BBC Cymru Wales shows, I remember Y Gwyll/Hinterland being the same.

They're Welsh shows for broadcast in Wales, the wider BBC gets them later because of a long-standing relationship related to the BBC's public service requirement in producing Welsh language content for the public given that we all pay for a TV license.

fenlander wrote:
In cases like this, would it be possible to include the two versions as separate titles, each with its own scheduling information?

Unfortunately no, TVmaze do not allow any kind of duplicates. You'll have to wait until the support for multiple premiere dates would be implemented. Meanwhile you could vote for this feature here https://www.tvmaze.com/threads/128/support-for-premiere-airdates-in-different-countries

Delenn wrote:
As far as Craith/Hidden goes, it's one Welsh speaking show, with English subtitles. As far as I'm aware, that's the standard protocol for S4C/BBC Cymru Wales shows, I remember Y Gwyll/Hinterland being the same.

They're Welsh shows for broadcast in Wales, the wider BBC gets them later because of a long-standing relationship related to the BBC's public service requirement in producing Welsh language content for the public given that we all pay for a TV license.

In the case of 'Keeping Faith' the show was first made in Welsh (as 'Un bore mercher') and broadcast in Wales with English subs. It was also shot in English (not dubbed) and this version was released in the rest of the UK some time after the original version. The female lead, Eve Myles, who is English-speaking, reportedly learned Welsh in order to perform the role.

Did I mention it's a cracking show?

'Hidden' is currently airing in the UK outside Wales and is also a version shot in English with occasional dialogue in Welsh when appropriate to the context. It was previously aired in Wales, in Welsh, as 'Craith'.

fenlander wrote:
In the case of 'Keeping Faith' the show was first made in Welsh and broadcast in Wales with English subs. It was also shot in English (not dubbed) and this version was released in the rest of the UK some time after the original version.

Ok, so that's new.

Would it being shot separately in both Welsh and English qualify a particular show being listed under both titles? I mean, there are two unique editions, rather than the usual subs/dubbing.

fenlander wrote:
'Hidden' is currently airing in the UK outside Wales and is also a version shot in English with occasional dialogue in Welsh when appropriate to the context. It was previously aired in Wales, in Welsh, as 'Craith'.

Sorry, you added this bit after I posted. My iPlayer version is all in Welsh, although if things are being shot twice in both languages, are they then technically different enough to warrant a separate listing?

Obviously, as standard, TVmaze doesn't allow duplicates; but where exactly is this line in that when you look at something shot twice in two completely different languages?

Delenn wrote:
Ok, so that's new.

Would it being shot separately in both Welsh and English qualify a particular show being listed under both titles? I mean, there are two unique editions, rather than the usual subs/dubbing.

Sorry, you added this bit after I posted. My iPlayer version is all in Welsh, although if things are being shot twice in both languages, are they then technically different enough to warrant a separate listing?

One side effect of shooting in two languages is that while English subtitles are available for both the Welsh and English versions, they are quite incompatible as there are significant differences in timing and cut between the two. The plot is, of course the same in each case.

With meaning any disrespect to the Welsh, it is the English version that is (very) likely to be watched by the largest number of viewers, but information about that version, including air dates, is quite difficult to come by. Because the Welsh version airs first, it gets listed on IMDB and elsewhere and when the English version comes along it just gets appended as an alternate title. It is a source of confusion, even on iPlayer.

In most respects, it would be helpful if the two versions were treated as unique productions.

This situation is not a unique situation as it has happened multiple times.

A similar situation happened to Kampen Om Tungvannet; https://www.tvmaze.com/shows/2036/kampen-om-tungtvannet. Series itself aired originally in Norwegian, but was picked up by a UK channel under it's alias ''The Saboteur'', which is basically the exact same series with same actors, just spoken in English.

So far as I know the series you suggested has the exact same storyline and actors, therefore we do treat it as a dubbed version, which per our policy is not allowed to be listed twice.

Thomas wrote:
This situation is not a unique situation as it has happened multiple times.

A similar situation happened to Kampen Om Tungvannet; https://www.tvmaze.com/shows/2036/kampen-om-tungtvannet. Series itself aired originally in Norwegian, but was picked up by a UK channel under it's alias ''The Saboteur'', which is basically the exact same series with same actors, just spoken in English.

So far as I know the series you suggested has the exact same storyline and actors, therefore we do treat it as a dubbed version, which per our policy is not allowed to be listed twice.

Makes sense to me (treating it as a dubbed version), I wasn't aware it had happened before. Good to know though, for future reference. :D

Thomas wrote:
This situation is not a unique situation as it has happened multiple times.

A similar situation happened to Kampen Om Tungvannet; https://www.tvmaze.com/shows/2036/kampen-om-tungtvannet. Series itself aired originally in Norwegian, but was picked up by a UK channel under it's alias ''The Saboteur'', which is basically the exact same series with same actors, just spoken in English.

So far as I know the series you suggested has the exact same storyline and actors, therefore we do treat it as a dubbed version, which per our policy is not allowed to be listed twice.

I'd have to disagree with that. To me, there is a world of difference between the exact same visuals just getting a new soundtrack in another language and re-shooting the whole show with new, very similar or even exact same, visuals in another language. The process of dubbing is no where even close to redoing the whole series from scratch. Treating it as dubbed doesn't make it dubbed. Just my thoughts.

If the show is actually reshot with a different language, we have to list it in my opinion. Otherwise we would not allow to list remakes and such.

if it is just dubbed and NOT newly filmed, then we should not list it.

fenlander wrote:
One side effect of shooting in two languages is that while English subtitles are available for both the Welsh and English versions, they are quite incompatible as there are significant differences in timing and cut between the two. The plot is, of course the same in each case.

JuanArango wrote:
If the show is actually reshot with a different language, we have to list it in my opinion. Otherwise we would not allow to list remakes and such.

if it is just dubbed and NOT newly filmed, then we should not list it.

+1

I mean, I’m not particularly invested one way or the other. I can see the logic in both arguments. As long as whatever is decided is clearly defined & indicated in policy to avoid future confusion.

In our current faq, it currently does not state anything, howerver the point listed under duplicates that are allowed;

* Extended versions of a show with a runtime that's at least 25% longer (of actual footage - not commercials) than the original (like "QI XL")

does not apply to it.... The show's being produced at the exact same time and day and does not add a value of 25% new footage to the series itself.... I just think it is absurd to list a series twice with the exact same credits, storyline, photos for only a change in language.

What is the extra value for users to list it twice? What is going to be different in our database except the info-section language? People will basically copy the exact same thing from the other listed series. Same summaries, same screen caps, same cast/crew appearances.

JuanArango wrote:
If the show is actually reshot with a different language, we have to list it in my opinion. Otherwise we would not allow to list remakes and such.

if it is just dubbed and NOT newly filmed, then we should not list it.

Remakes have a different cast and crew so not really relevant to this problem.

Thomas wrote:
This situation is not a unique situation as it has happened multiple times.

A similar situation happened to Kampen Om Tungvannet; https://www.tvmaze.com/shows/2036/kampen-om-tungtvannet. Series itself aired originally in Norwegian, but was picked up by a UK channel under it's alias ''The Saboteur'', which is basically the exact same series with same actors, just spoken in English.

So far as I know the series you suggested has the exact same storyline and actors, therefore we do treat it as a dubbed version, which per our policy is not allowed to be listed twice.

To add to this we also don't list the "Live Show" episode from 30 Rock twice, even though they did two different tapings for it. One for each coast.

Aidan wrote:
To add to this we also don't list the "Live Show" episode from 30 Rock twice, even though they did two different tapings for it. One for each coast.

Perhaps it should be counted especially if there were bloopers or other differences in the two 'versions. Different era, media and processes but in the Old Time Radio (OTR) world when many shows were live, if they survived in recorded format, both 'versions' are listed as East Coast/West Coast.

But the main difference here is the BBC Welsh has a different script done in a different language. I also assume all the BBC cast & crew are the same but ... are they? Anyone know for sure?

Thomas wrote:
In our current faq, it currently does not state anything, howerver the point listed under duplicates that are allowed;

* Extended versions of a show with a runtime that's at least 25% longer (of actual footage - not commercials) than the original (like "QI XL")

does not apply to it.... The show's being produced at the exact same time and day and does not add a value of 25% new footage to the series itself.... I just think it is absurd to list a series twice with the exact same credits, storyline, photos for only a change in language.

What is the extra value for users to list it twice? What is going to be different in our database except the info-section language? People will basically copy the exact same thing from the other listed series. Same summaries, same screen caps, same cast/crew appearances.

The 25% rule seems, to me anyway, to mean a show has increased by 25% not that it is the same run time but 25% different. As an example, not that I would ever suggest any country ever follow the CRTC simultaneous substitution rule, it does consider a show to be 'different' if 5% or more differs and therefore sim sub would not apply ... much less a than 25% barrier.

I'm being picky but, technically if people use screen caps from one video because it's 'basically the same' they would be, IMHO, wrong.

SilverSurfer wrote:
Perhaps it should be counted especially if there were bloopers or other differences in the two 'versions. Different era, media and processes but in the Old Time Radio (OTR) world when many shows were live, if they survived in recorded format, both 'versions' are listed as East Coast/West Coast.

But the main difference here is the BBC Welsh has a different script done in a different language. I also assume all the BBC cast & crew are the same but ... are they? Anyone know for sure?

I can tell you that the actors are the exact same ones as they aired the exact same scene back to back on the same day. and Im pretty sure Welsh people are able to speak English fluently...

I'm not sure if this will help but this is the BBC Wales section on their press office where they communicate all things welsh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/search?tag=Wales&page=1&sort=associated