Scripps Shows, we need feedback (Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives and all the others)

@BigEd wrote:
I've seen them changed but still not correct. The FoodNetwork.com also has a bad listing that it looks like it is being followed here. And the FoodNetwork is this channels home station. Most streaming channels that show this show may or not be correct but most are following my second link below.
Stuck on Season 33...
https://www.foodnetwork.com/shows/diners-drive-ins-and-dives/episodes 
Same site but more detailed and is at season 37 with current dates. This is the one I see most people using.
https://watch.foodnetwork.com/tv-shows/diners-drive-ins-and-dives/?utm_source=marketingsite&utm_medium=showlander

This is easily solved, as per TV Maze policy when several seasons run at the same time, we switch back to year based guides. I will inform david :)

If the Discovery-controlled 'watch' site is used - then there is no several seasons running at the same time.  It's only when using the production-numbered food network site that this occurs.  This would (I hope) be known to anybody working in TV metadata:  The scripps-controlled sites like Food Network, Travel, HGTV, etc number their episodes with their production number -- not airing number (which would give the appearance of multiple seasons).  The Discovery-run sites like watch.foodnetwork, watch.travel, watch.hgtv, etc number in airing order which makes them preferable for determining season and episode determination.  The OP is pointing out that we're 2 episodes in to the new season using a network site that focuses on airing order however the listing here seems to try to be using the scripps site that is focused on production number ordering to provide season numbering to be production numbered ... but manually managing air date order by entry.  I'm sure there are other entries for other shows where the confusion between using something like food network or travel channel instead of watch.foodnetwork or watch.travelchannel is also happening.

@eherberg wrote:
If the Discovery-controlled 'watch' site is used - then there is no several seasons running at the same time.  It's only when using the production-numbered food network site that this occurs.  This would (I hope) be known to anybody working in TV metadata:  The scripps-controlled sites like Food Network, Travel, HGTV, etc number their episodes with their production number -- not airing number (which would give the appearance of multiple seasons).  The Discovery-run sites like watch.foodnetwork, watch.travel, watch.hgtv, etc number in airing order which makes them preferable for determining season and episode determination.  The OP is pointing out that we're 2 episodes in to the new season using a network site that focuses on airing order however the listing here seems to try to be using the scripps site that is focused on production number ordering to provide season numbering to be production numbered ... but manually managing air date order by entry.  I'm sure there are other entries for other shows where the confusion between using something like food network or travel channel instead of watch.foodnetwork or watch.travelchannel is also happening.

thx for the explanation, I will work on the guide according to the discovery site tomorrow :)

One word of caution:  Especially for Scripps shows, I hesitate to use statements as absolutes.  Care must still be taken when using the discovery-maintained 'watch' sites as well as the scripps-controlled sites.  There can still be discrepancies.  In this particular example - one of the main differences between the two sites is that 'Triple D Nation' production-wise is treated as a separate show if you look at the Scripps Food Network site.  If you utilize the consumer airing order watch.foodnetwork.com - then 'Triple D Nation' is not it's own show - but a part of 'Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives'.  

So one can't blindly follow either site.  If you're concerned about airing order - the 'watch' sites are preferred - but still need to be authenticated with a secondary source or interpreted by whatever metadata site rules take precendence.  

Here, for example, you also have 'Triple D Nation' as it's own show (with perhaps some overlap when compared between the main DDD program).  Production-wise - perhaps it is considered as such, however their other consumer-facing site (as well as their streaming partners when provided episodes) do not consider it a separate show.

Ideally with any Scripps shows - the people who edit it should be ones familiar with the program.  Failing that - then first one should decide if Triple D Nation really is it's own separate show -- because that then dictates how you interpret what you see when looking at either FoodNetwork.com or watch.foodnetwork.com

@eherberg wrote:
One word of caution:  Especially for Scripps shows, I hesitate to use statements as absolutes.  Care must still be taken when using the discovery-maintained 'watch' sites as well as the scripps-controlled sites.  There can still be discrepancies.  In this particular example - one of the main differences between the two sites is that 'Triple D Nation' production-wise is treated as a separate show if you look at the Scripps Food Network site.  If you utilize the consumer airing order watch.foodnetwork.com - then 'Triple D Nation' is not it's own show - but a part of 'Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives'.  

So one can't blindly follow either site.  If you're concerned about airing order - the 'watch' sites are preferred - but still need to be authenticated with a secondary source or interpreted by whatever metadata site rules take precendence.  

Here, for example, you also have 'Triple D Nation' as it's own show (with perhaps some overlap when compared between the main DDD program).  Production-wise - perhaps it is considered as such, however their other consumer-facing site (as well as their streaming partners when provided episodes) do not consider it a separate show.

Ideally with any Scripps shows - the people who edit it should be ones familiar with the program.  Failing that - then first one should decide if Triple D Nation really is it's own separate show -- because that then dictates how you interpret what you see when looking at either FoodNetwork.com or watch.foodnetwork.com

omg this is horribly complicated :) I started to change everything according to the discovery site, but I am not familiar at all with the show. Can you tell me if it is ok so far?

I am not an expert on the program either -- only knowing what I needed to as the former resident Scripps authority at another database.  (And a chunk of that knowledge was only after emailing and engaging in a running conversation with Discovery Relations Department to finetune database rules).  Deciding how you are going to address the scripps sites (they are not chosen as the primary source in other databases) for not only Food Network but all other Scripps sites like Travel Channel, etc dictate how you proceed and should be done prior to any editing.  (Always a good strategy:  Research before Editing :-) )There are cases (and an argument to be made) that the production based sites can be used for everything except episode numbering.  For some shows, that works fine.  In this case for this program, this will cause a season discrepancy.  It's why for simplicity, the Discovery-run sites are often defaulted to.  But again - don't take this as an absolute - because now you have to be aware that something that is counted as 2 programs on the Scripps site is counted as a single program on the Discovery-based site (and for what it's worth, on Amazon, Vudu, etc).  Another option would be to avoid this kind of headache for all Scripps network programs because it's not just limited to this particular show.  It wouldn't take much searching to find multiple Food Network/Travel Channel/HGTV shows where the same thing is probably happening there.  An argument could be made that because there will be this kind of discrepancy for nearly every program on those networks programs - that everything should be changed to year-date the moment a discrepancy is encountered.

Again - the first thing to do would be to come to a site consensus on how you are going to treat 'Triple D Nation':  You have 2 food network sites to choose from - one with production numbering and one without.  One treats the series as a separate series, the other does not.  How you decide that then dictates how you proceed.  Whether you come up with some kind of strategy to handle production-number designations?  Or handle it by using the airing-order 'watch' sites and eliminating your separate show entry?  Or throw up your hands and just switch to year-based.

And then repeat that strategy for about a dozen other Scripps show.  :-)

@eherberg wrote:
I am not an expert on the program either -- only knowing what I needed to as the former resident Scripps authority at another database.  (And a chunk of that knowledge was only after emailing and engaging in a running conversation with Discovery Relations Department to finetune database rules).  Deciding how you are going to address the scripps sites (they are not chosen as the primary source in other databases) for not only Food Network but all other Scripps sites like Travel Channel, etc dictate how you proceed and should be done prior to any editing.  (Always a good strategy:  Research before Editing :-) )There are cases (and an argument to be made) that the production based sites can be used for everything except episode numbering.  For some shows, that works fine.  In this case for this program, this will cause a season discrepancy.  It's why for simplicity, the Discovery-run sites are often defaulted to.  But again - don't take this as an absolute - because now you have to be aware that something that is counted as 2 programs on the Scripps site is counted as a single program on the Discovery-based site (and for what it's worth, on Amazon, Vudu, etc).  Another option would be to avoid this kind of headache for all Scripps network programs because it's not just limited to this particular show.  It wouldn't take much searching to find multiple Food Network/Travel Channel/HGTV shows where the same thing is probably happening there.  An argument could be made that because there will be this kind of discrepancy for nearly every program on those networks programs - that everything should be changed to year-date the moment a discrepancy is encountered.

Again - the first thing to do would be to come to a site consensus on how you are going to treat 'Triple D Nation':  You have 2 food network sites to choose from - one with production numbering and one without.  One treats the series as a separate series, the other does not.  How you decide that then dictates how you proceed.  Whether you come up with some kind of strategy to handle production-number designations?  Or handle it by using the airing-order 'watch' sites and eliminating your separate show entry?  Or throw up your hands and just switch to year-based.

And then repeat that strategy for about a dozen other Scripps show.  :-)

OK, got it, we need to make the decision first what we will do here, thx alot for the help :)

@gazza911 @tnt @Thomas @david @Jan 

we need to evaluate this before proceeding any further.

I'm aware of how Scripps do it; it's been explained in the past (we'd already made the decision to change it to year based in the multiple overlapping seasons scenario before we were aware of the Watch/Discovery maintained site).

For me I'm not bothered either way, it's just much simpler to go with year based to avoid any confusion which may arise due to the conflicting sources.

We would consider 'Triple D Nation' as a separate show; as far as I'm aware they're specials, but as they're semi-consistent specials, our policy dictates it should be a separate show.

@gazza911 wrote:
I'm aware of how Scripps do it; it's been explained in the past (we'd already made the decision to change it to year based before we were aware of the Watch/Discovery maintained site).

For me I'm not bothered either way, it's just much simpler to go with year based to avoid any confusion which may arise due to the conflicting sources.

We would consider 'Triple D Nation' as a separate show; as far as I'm aware they're specials, but as they're semi-consistent specials, our policy dictates it should be a separate show.

so we need david and jan to make a decision if we do all scripps shows year based or we use the watch/discovery guides.

@gazza911 wrote:
I'm aware of how Scripps do it; it's been explained in the past (we'd already made the decision to change it to year based before we were aware of the Watch/Discovery maintained site).

For me I'm not bothered either way, it's just much simpler to go with year based to avoid any confusion which may arise due to the conflicting sources.

We would consider 'Triple D Nation' as a separate show; as far as I'm aware they're specials, but as they're semi-consistent specials, our policy dictates it should be a separate show.

Triple D Nation was, if I remember correctly, announced as a new show and not as specials.

My two cents is to avoid using a year based system if at all possible. I know these networks are a pain but switching to a system that is easier on us is not, IMHO, a good enough reason to alter how they number the shows. It's bad enough they cause confusion with different numbering at times, we should not be adding to the confusion by creating our very own, third party numbering system for these shows.

On a side note: If you're a student of TV metadata as a hobby, it's interesting to see how the commercial metadata providers handle this.  Both Rovi and Gracenote don't count 'Triple D Nation' as a separate show -- but they don't use the season markers from the watch sites either.  Likely due to which entity gives them their show descriptions - but their season count for the most part equals that of the Scripps sites - but doing so means episode numbers are all over the place.  In each case, both Rovi and Gracenote have opted for their own internal episode numbering as the Scripps production numbering just can't mesh with a listings site that is concerned about airing order while maintaining a Scripps season numbering.  

It gets even weirder if you look at shows on the Food Network Kitchen app on Fire TV.  The latest season of '30 Minute Meals', for example, is exclusive to Food Network Kitchen - but takes it's episode numbering from the Scripps site.  So you have episodes released that are numbered 4, 5, 8, and 1, respectively.  To compound matters further, they order them by episode number and not release number.  So Monday's new episode will be the newest episode but will actually be slotted somewhere in the middle of that list.  For my wife (who doesn't care one whit about production numbers vs episode numbers) - it's incredibly frustrating and she actually said to me last week "Why wouldn't they number them in the order they release them?"

Why indeed, Baby ... Why indeed ...

Regarding this DDD case:  If you're going to count Triple D as it's own entity - then you are already down the path of not utilizing the airing-order source of the 'watch' sites.  However - if you proceed further in then sourcing back to the Scripps sites, their own multi-season production number airing order forces you to an alternative third party numbering system no matter what.  You either go with year-based (as is already done for some other problematic shows like 'House Hunters', for example - where in 2020 there are currently 9 ... yes, 9 ... overlapping seasons if you try to stay with the scripps site) or you are going to have to come up with some kind of alternative numbering anyway (and then trying to create one simple enough that users see the method used to come up with the numbering scheme).  It's hard to compete with the simplicity of year-based in user addition if you can't use the episode numbering as given.

The alternative is to follow what every site except the Scripps site does in not separating Triple D - but it then follows to determine the reasoning behind the separation in the first place (which was likely done because the one 'official' site has it as such while one 'official' site does not.  

Note I don't have any horse I'm betting on as to which way this database does it.  I just hope this clarifies options as I'm familiar with how these 2 entities (Discovery and Scripps) work after their merger.  2 different entities still controlling 2 different sites after their merger makes for some confusing metadata.  I have had a few email exchanges with Discovery Relations on correcting some errors they made on their 'watch' sites in the past year and actually just had a Rovi correspondence 3 weeks ago correcting an issue in their database that was grossly out-of-order on an airing.  It takes a few emails to get to a contact that can affect change in their respective databases - but I have at least some informal relationships with those commercial providers to at least correct the gross and obvious errors in those listings when they occur.  :-)

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Triple+D+Nation%22+new+show

When Triple D started there are multiple references (see link above) to it being a new show ... but again, if I remember correctly, almost from the start Food Network wobbled on how they listed it on their site. I don't know if they changed their mind or were afraid people would not connect the two shows or what happened that they never fully embraced the show as a new, spin-off of DDD.

@JuanArango wrote:
OK, got it, we need to make the decision first what we will do here, thx alot for the help :)

@gazza911 @tnt @Thomas @david @Jan 

we need to evaluate this before proceeding any further.

Well, those websites may have their discrepancies, but per TVmaze policy, the press releases have precedence over any website data. And Triple D was presented as a new show, a spin-off from the DDD.

https://press.discovery.com/us/food/press-releases/2018/guy-fieri-returns-top-diners-drive-ins-and-di-4410/

Guy Fieri Returns To Top Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives Locations on New Food Network Series Triple D Nation

For the first time Guy Fieri is heading back to some of his all-time favorite Diners, Drive-ins and Dives spots on new series Triple D Nation, beginning on Friday, July 13th at 9pm ET/PT. On this all-new spin on DDD, Guy checks in on some of the most memorable joints he has previously visited to see how they have been doing

We already have a separate listing for the https://www.tvmaze.com/shows/37533/triple-d-nation, so my suggestion would be to leave it all as it is now.

If 'Triple D Nation' stays - then somebody will need to revert Juan's work on 'Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives' - but somehow reconciling the season/episode numbering of the production site (which may result in needing to go to year-based or some other way to handle the production-number season issues)

Ok, I think with that show we have a solution, we will keep Triple D as its own show, I will remove the episodes from triple D on Diners...

Then we should go for a year based solution on Diners..., I will ask david to do it :)

Scripps shows are giving me a headache :)