Why is it a list?
One actor is listed with the particular credit. Why does that mean every actor after that one individual is also on "the list"?
But anyway, if you want to add the rest of them who aren't specifically listed as "Also Starring" as Starring, sure. Go for it! It seems to me that we should determine if any of them should be listed as Starring, before we determine which ones.
Gadfly wrote:
Why is it a list?One actor is listed with the particular credit. Why does that mean every actor after that one individual is also on "the list"?
But anyway, if you want to add the rest of them who aren't specifically listed as "Also Starring" as Starring, sure. Go for it! It seems to me that we should determine if any of them should be listed as Starring, before we determine which ones.
You really do not get it, do you? He is just the first in the list. They do not repeat a list title on all of the screens. When you have several screens of actor names, and only the first have a title "Also starring", what do you make with the rest of the people?
And anyway, if I'll follow your logic, where does it say that the rest is guest stars? How is the credit of Sibongile Mlambo, for example, is different from credit of Molly Parker?
My point is not that all of the actors (except 7 stars of the show, listed in press release mentioned above) should be moved to main cast. My point is that they all should be treated equally. There's only 2 blocks of actor credits in this show. Main stars (7 actors, listed as stars in the press release) and "Also starring" list which includes the rest of the actors. There's no separation of "Also starring" from "Guest stars", it's a single list.
tnt wrote:
You really do not get it, do you? He is just the first in the list. They do not repeat a list title on all of the screens. When you have several screens of actor names, and only the first have a title "Also starring", what do you make with the rest of the people?And anyway, if I'll follow your logic, where does it say that the rest is guest stars? How is the credit of Sibongile Mlambo, for example, is different from credit of Molly Parker?
My point is not that all of the actors (except 7 stars of the show, listed in press release mentioned above) should be moved to main cast. My point is that they all should be treated equally. There's only 2 blocks of actor credits in this show. Main stars (7 actors, listed as stars in the press release) and "Also starring" list which includes the rest of the actors. There's no separation of "Also starring" from "Guest stars", it's a single list.
I have to agree with this, this seems logical!
tnt wrote:
You really do not get it, do you? He is just the first in the list. They do not repeat a list title on all of the screens. When you have several screens of actor names, and only the first have a title "Also starring", what do you make with the rest of the people?And anyway, if I'll follow your logic, where does it say that the rest is guest stars? How is the credit of Sibongile Mlambo, for example, is different from credit of Molly Parker?
My point is not that all of the actors (except 7 stars of the show, listed in press release mentioned above) should be moved to main cast. My point is that they all should be treated equally. There's only 2 blocks of actor credits in this show. Main stars (7 actors, listed as stars in the press release) and "Also starring" list which includes the rest of the actors. There's no separation of "Also starring" from "Guest stars", it's a single list.
I don't understand how that goes to listing as Guest Stars or Show Stars. I did agree with your logic. I didn't say that they should be listed (or not listed) as Guest Stars, so I'm not sure what logic of mine you're following. I asked a question, you answered it, and I agreed with it. I didn't present a line of reasoning as I don't have one: just the data policies.
Any additions and/or changes I made were as minimal as possible and based on the policies. Based on what was stated above and the policies themselves. "The following terms are normally considered Main Cast, though individual shows can have a different policy: Principal Cast, Also Starring")
And to a show that someone had already added actors and roles.
I understand your reasoning that there is no separation of Also Starring from Guest Stars. It is indeed a single list.
I'm asking so as to make similar future determinations.because "though individual shows can have a different policy" is pretty vague. I want to be clear on the determination so I can replicate it. In this case, "Also Starring" seems to have no meaning or significance. That's not my line of reasoning: that's the conclusion of what you're saying. And... that's fine.
Gadfly wrote:
so I'm not sure what logic of mine you're following.
One actor is listed with the particular credit. Why does that mean every actor after that one individual is also on "the list"?
This "particular credit" do not belong to one actor, it belong to the rest of them as well. It's a list of the people, one name on each screen. If there were two different credit types, they would put the new "Guest starring" or "Co-Starring" title, to separate actors with different credentials. Since there's no such title, each of the actors are credited exactly the same, as the previous one.
My question was: if you, as you say, agreed that there's indeed a list of people, and they all credited equally, why do you moved only one of them to the main cast, therefore breaking the list and making them not equal? You saying one thing and doing the opposite.
As for the future determinations – if the show have no other credit types, except main cast and "also starring", the latter most definitely do not imply "main cast". Checking with the network's press release usually helps with the determination, especially when the said press release have the explicit list of the show stars.
If none of the above helps you, the good idea would be to create a thread in the data forums for each show where you have doubts with the cast types, to solve each individual case.
tnt wrote:
This "particular credit" do not belong to one actor, it belong to the rest of them as well. It's a list of the people, one name on each screen. If there were two different credit types, they would put the new "Guest starring" or "Co-Starring" title, to separate actors with different credentials. Since there's no such title, each of the actors are credited exactly the same, as the previous one.My question was: if you, as you say, agreed that there's indeed a list of people, and they all credited equally, why do you moved only one of them to the main cast, therefore breaking the list and making them not equal? You saying one thing and doing the opposite.
As for the future determinations – if the show have no other credit types, except main cast and "also starring", the latter most definitely do not imply "main cast". Checking with the network's press release usually helps with the determination, especially when the said press release have the explicit list of the show stars.
If none of the above helps you, the good idea would be to create a thread in the data forums for each show where you have doubts with the cast types, to solve each individual case.
That's probably why I'm confused and/or seem indifferent. I didn't ask about a list of actors. I asked about one actor: the one who is actually listed as Also Starring. How the others should be listed is an interesting question... but it's not the one I asked.
In your screen captures, I can see why there might be confusion about the people listed after Brian Steele. But there doesn't seem to be any confusion about Brian Steele himself. And I didn't ask about anyone except Steele.
I never mentioned lists initially. I also don't think they're credited equally: in your screen captures, Steele has Also Starring: the others you referenced do not. Note again: I'm not saying they are or aren't equal. Just that it doesn't have to do with only determining how Steele is listed at TVMaze. That's why I only "moved" one: because that's the only one who had a title described in TVMaze policy.
My question boils down to what I thought was a simple one: Brian Steele (not anyone before or after him, credit-wise) is listed as Also Starring. what does that "translate" to at TVMaze? Ladyshelley (quoting the policy) seemed to indicate it was Show Cast. You're saying it's Guest Star. My confusion aside, if two staff members can come to different conclusions from the same text, maybe we need clearer text?
Hope that clarifies things.
For starters, you did not asked about any specific actor or a show. You asked an abstract question, which could give you only an abstract answer. Which is already written in the policy. If there was a simple straightforward solution to this problem, the policy would've have it already, isn't it?
For each dubious case you'll have to either find the answer by yourself, ask the collective consciousness for an advice about this particular case or directly contact the heads of TVmaze to get them decide for you. That's about all of the options you have.
To answer your question, my "logic" is this:
The Show Extras state:
http://www.tvmaze.com/faq/14/show-extras
"The following terms are normally considered Main Cast, though individual shows can have a different policy:
Also Starring"
As far as Steele is concerned, he's listed as Also Starring, and there's nothing to indicate the show has a different policy concerning him. So... he'd be Main Cast. It's an if/then statement from the site's data policies.. "If X, then Y." If the official web site lists him differently, or doesn't list him as Main Cast... the Show Extras also state:
"In some cases, there might be multiple sources that conflict with each other. When that happens, they should be considered in the following order:
1. Data shown on-screen during the show's announcement, intro, or credits
2. Data in a press release or press kit
3. Data on the show's official website"
In this case, there's apparently a conflict and 1 beats 3. My only question was where the relevant data policy is listed concerning Also Starring. LadyShelley answered it. The thread has then changed to how people after Steele should be listed. I have no "logic" for that, and am not interested in discussing it. It doesn't remove the on-screen Also Starring from Steele, or change the site's data policies about how he should be listed. If folks wants to discuss it, great: more power to them.
You can agree or disagree, but it's a pretty straightforward reading of the data policies and thus my "logic". Hope that clarifies things.
Let's make it easier. Let's put it to vote. At this point I'm just curious, what other people think about this. Especially LadyShelley (as she seems to know way more about all those crediting nuances).
So, here's the episode credits (there's no more actors, only crew) https://imgur.com/a/90TK1TR. Here's the press release from Netflix, naming the first seven actors as show stars.
1) Do you think that "Also starring" equals "Main cast" in this case? Yes/No
2) Do you think that "Also starring" only related to Brian Steele? Yes/No
Please, people, take a part.
tnt wrote:
Let's make it easier. Let's put it to vote. At this point I'm just curious, what other people think about this. Especially LadyShelley (as she seems to know way more about all those crediting nuances).So, here's the episode credits (there's no more actors, only crew) https://imgur.com/a/90TK1TR. Here's the press release from Netflix, naming the first seven actors as show stars.
1) Do you think that "Also starring" equals "Main cast" in this case? Yes/No
2) Do you think that "Also starring" only related to Brian Steele? Yes/No
Please, people, take a part.
Seems pretty clear to me. Toby Stephens to Parker Posey is main cast and Brian Steele and after is guest cast.
If also starring in this case meant main cast then surely there would be a guest cast title inbetween Brian Steele and Sibongile Mlambo, besides the press release clearly states there are 7 main cast none of which are Brian Steele.
m 2 cents are:
1. No
2. No
now its time to watch the three lions play :)
One page listing all the players (actors), no distinction between cast, guest stars etc. Completely eliminates this argument that keeps happening over and over again.
My two cents:
The "Also Starring" credit follows other production credits, specifically producers, to me that means the "Also Starring" is their version of "Guest Starring" So
1) Do you think that "Also starring" equals "Main cast" in this case? No
2) Do you think that "Also starring" only related to Brian Steele? No
LadyShelley wrote:
My two cents:The "Also Starring" credit follows other production credits, specifically producers, to me that means the "Also Starring" is their version of "Guest Starring" So
Since we're voting, I agree with this.^^
1. No.
2. No
Thank you everybody for participation :)
Hope that clarifies things.
tnt wrote:
Let's make it easier. Let's put it to vote. At this point I'm just curious, what other people think about this. Especially LadyShelley (as she seems to know way more about all those crediting nuances).
Since the first 7 credited actors are exactly the ones listed in the press release as main cast ("stars"), I would not hesitate to conclude that the remaining credited characters are explicitly not main cast. So, no/no.
So in the simplest scenario, any one of the 4 allowed sources explicitly designates the credit type (main, guest, etc) for each credit. But like in tnt's example, don't hesitate to combine the information from multiple sources to get to the conclusion. If one source seems consistent in listing main cast roles, you can probably assume that any other (unspecified) credits are not main cast. Likewise, if you can find one source indicating that actor X is part of the main cast, you can probably infer that everyone else who's credited exactly like X (and unspecified) is main cast as well.
One thing I can add is to please use the show wiki's generously. In any case where it's not immediately obvious why you're entering data in a specific way, just leave a quick message in the show wiki explaining your reasoning so the people coming after you will understand. If you're not sure about a specific case, just open a thread about that specific show and summarize the discussion in the show wiki afterwards. If you don't have access to editing show wiki's, just request it in Edit Requests or another appropriate topic.
I always skip intros unless I notice nobody else has done the credits here... did it not show credits at the beginning then? FWIW, Sibongile Mlambo was promoted to series regular for next season, so she should be guest star for s1.
