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Architecture for Alternate Airdates


david wrote 2 months ago: 1

So I'm trying to get a sense for what exactly people want when they are talking about this feature called "alternate airdates" :-)

I've gathered a couple of commonly suggested usecases:

1. There's a source (other than DVD) where episodes have a different order than the original

2. There's a source where episodes have a different airdate than the original

3. There's a source where episodes have different titles than the original (either translated/transliterated titles; or titles for previously untitled episodes)

Some other questions people might have:

I. What's the first time this episode (premiered on a web channel) aired on broadcast TV?

II. What's the first time this episode (premiered on broadcast TV) was streamed on a web channel?

III. What's the first time this episode premiered in my country (on broadcast TV, or a country-based web channel)?

IV. What's the first time this episode premiered in my language (with official subtitles or dubbing)?

These usecases/questions might intertwine. For example, when Netflix added Casa de Papel as Money Heist, that was the first time the episodes became available on a web channel and the first time they premiered with English subtitles; on top of that they had different numbering than the original.

Other situations are simpler, a show that premieres on BBC iPlayer and airs on BBC One a week later would only count as "broadcast TV premiere"; the episodes would have different dates compared to the original but everything else is identical.

I have a proposal for an architecture that would - theoretically - cover all these scenarios. See this image: https://chat.tvmaze.net/upload/a29221c96ad9e33bb2d3c17febe2441e6ab89d53/m4Tp0dl2asBTVObf6qAyheEH8nXO7euR78Gsmp5I/Screenshot_2020-11-18_Create_Alternate_List_TVmaze.png. Alternate lists can be created (like we already can for DVD order), and each alternate list can have one or multiple of these properties selected.

For alternate episode entries added to these lists see: https://chat.tvmaze.net/upload/a29221c96ad9e33bb2d3c17febe2441e6ab89d53/8HG2ULEhqAC1miayxgobx1k6WXVQlqACM56d7yAR/Screenshot_2020-11-19_Create_Alternate_Episode_TVmaze.png. Specifying the underlying linked episode(s) and numbering is mandatory. A name should only be specified if the episode is named differently than on the original. An airdate/airtime should normally be specified as the date the episode premiered on this source, but can be left empty if unknown.

The idea is that this architecture theoretically allows for almost anything, but at least in the beginning the actual usage would be curbed by policy. For example, don't allow every country premiere / language to be listed but only the most popular ones. Don't allow all DVD releases to be listed, but only when the episode ordering is different than the original. 

Thoughts? Does this make somewhat sense?


LadyShelley wrote 2 months ago: 1

For me, my needs break down into two different categories: 

** DVD ordering (not only the Firefly issues of the episodes in a completely different order from how they aired but when a DVD release combines a two-part episode into one) This is important for systems such as PLEX to be able to scrape correct data. 

** Episodes airing in my country (all the episodes, not just the first) after they have aired in another. It does me no good to know when Victoria aired in the UK. If I want to watch it, I need to know when it airs where I am. 


tnt wrote 2 months ago: 1

Makes perfect sense to me :)

Another usecase came to mind (somewhat similar to #1): for networks like Scripps, where episodes have the network assigned numbers, but aired in random order, therefore we converted them to year-based numbering. Now we can alternatively list them using the network's numeration.


david wrote 2 months ago: 1

@LadyShelley The first part is even already possible with our existing alternate DVD lists :) See https://www.tvmaze.com/faq/40/alternate-episodes under "merged episodes" and "split episodes". The second part, episodes airing in my country, would become possible with the implementation of this feature!

@tnt Right, good one. How would we possibly name/classify that one though?


tnt wrote 2 months ago: 1

@david wrote:
@tnt Right, good one. How would we possibly name/classify that one though?

Something like "Production order" or "Network assigned order"?


JuanArango wrote 2 months ago: 1

The screenshots are looking pretty good. Any thoughts yet what user level will be able to edit those?


tnt wrote 2 months ago: 1

@JuanArango wrote:
The screenshots are looking pretty good. Any thoughts yet what user level will be able to edit those?

I suppose the current permissions are fine. TC and above to create list, anyone to add episodes.


JuanArango wrote 2 months ago: 1

@tnt wrote:
I suppose the current permissions are fine. TC and above to create list, anyone to add episodes.

Sounds fair!


gazza911 wrote 2 months ago: 1

1. I think selecting 'Country Premiere' should then display a list of Network & Web Channels in that country to choose from

2. Make sure that the Network/Web Channel on the show information isn't present in the lists (we don't want the main to be Netflix, then someone adds a redundant 'Streaming Premiere' of Netflix)

3. The lists should exclude anything that's already added (or error) - max 1 per country + streaming + broadcast + language - this may be for future revisions though

4. It's unclear from the screenshot if you can define a single list as multiple types, f.e. country, broadcast & language premiere.

5. Alternate Episodes added to lists for a Global Web Channel should not have an airtime, like it does for normal episodes

.

In terms of permissions, I'd say Trusted Contributor to create the lists, Standard Contributor to add episodes


tnt wrote 2 months ago: 2

@gazza911 wrote:
1. I think selecting 'Country Premiere' should then display a list of Network & Web Channels in that country to choose from

And vise versa. Selecting a network should automatically select (and lock) the corresponding country. So you can't select BBC One and then the United States.

2. Make sure that the Network/Web Channel on the show information isn't present in the lists (we don't want the main to be Netflix, then someone adds a redundant 'Streaming Premiere' of Netflix)

Netflix (and other global web channels like Prime Video) could have a different premiere date for different countries. For example, season 3 of Frontier premiered on Netflix in the U.S. on 2018-11-23, but in Canada on 2019-11-23, exactly one year later.


TonyMayhew wrote 2 months ago: 1

Alternate country airdates is something I've been hoping that would be implemented here since as long as I can remember, and streaming Vs transmission by networks would be great, especially now that more and more networks are series dumping on their streaming services after the first episode transmits on the network (In the UK, the BBC & CH4 have started doing this a lot!).

Would the alternate airdates appear in the daily schedule?


david wrote 2 months ago: 1

@gazza911 wrote:
1. I think selecting 'Country Premiere' should then display a list of Network & Web Channels in that country to choose from

I guess that makes sense.. a country premiere will always be on either a network or a non-global web channel. Will probably do this, just have to think about the UI for a bit.

2. Make sure that the Network/Web Channel on the show information isn't present in the lists (we don't want the main to be Netflix, then someone adds a redundant 'Streaming Premiere' of Netflix)

Not sure if that's really necessary, there's a million of mistakes you can make with alternate lists, that's why creating them will continue to be limited to TC for now.

3. The lists should exclude anything that's already added (or error) - max 1 per country + streaming + broadcast + language - this may be for future revisions though

Already done

4. It's unclear from the screenshot if you can define a single list as multiple types, f.e. country, broadcast & language premiere.

Yep, a list can have any number of types.

5. Alternate Episodes added to lists for a Global Web Channel should not have an airtime, like it does for normal episodes

Check!

@tnt wrote:
And vise versa. Selecting a network should automatically select (and lock) the corresponding country. So you can't select BBC One and then the United States.

If I'm going with gazza's suggestion, I'll probably just remove the country dropdown entirely and infer that based on the chosen network/web channel.

Netflix (and other global web channels like Prime Video) could have a different premiere date for different countries. For example, season 3 of Frontier premiered on Netflix in the U.S. on 2018-11-23, but in Canada on 2019-11-23, exactly one year later.

That's explicitly not going to be supported with this feature, global webchannel availability is a different beast entirely to be dealt with another day. :)

 


david wrote 2 months ago: 2

@TonyMayhew wrote:
Alternate country airdates is something I've been hoping that would be implemented here since as long as I can remember, and streaming Vs transmission by networks would be great, especially now that more and more networks are series dumping on their streaming services after the first episode transmits on the network (In the UK, the BBC & CH4 have started doing this a lot!).

Yeah, those "sneak previews"/"first look" in the UK are the main inspiration for the streaming premiere & broadcast premiere types :)

Would the alternate airdates appear in the daily schedule?

This is first and foremost about creating the architecture and getting some data in. It would make sense for the schedule/calendar to optionally support the alternate airdates as well, but no timeline/promises there.


gazza911 wrote a month ago: 1

@david I realise that I didn't think about this before, but what about Netflix premieres where they release in multiple languages at the same time.

Are we expected to create 5 seperate alternate episode lists that are a copy of each other, except from the language, or will it be possible to assign more than one language/country to a single alternate episode list?

In terms of bugs:

1. Not selecting anything displays "Unknown" as the title, but "World Premiere" in the dropdown to select alternate list
2. In the above, it is not displayed under Show | Episodes as there's already a World Premiere
3. Selecting 'Language Premiere' but not a language causes an unhandled error, rather than an error message
4. Alternate Lists dropdown has a hardcoded width, so x country premiere always gets cut off
5. You can have multiple country premieres for the same country
6. Edit Alternate List button still displays for standard contributors (but they are correctly denied access)


david wrote a month ago: 1

@gazza911 wrote:
@david I realise that I didn't think about this before, but what about Netflix premieres where they release in multiple languages at the same time.

Are we expected to create 5 seperate alternate episode lists that are a copy of each other, except from the language, or will it be possible to assign more than one language/country to a single alternate episode list?

"This type of list can be used to indicate when episodes are aired for the first time in a different language than the original". If the show is already premiered in multiple languages, this wouldn't apply, so no alternate list can be created. On top of that, we currently - and perhaps indefinitely - only allow a single language (English) for the language premiere type. 

In terms of bugs:

Thanks!


gazza911 wrote a month ago: 1

In terms of the policy:

Verbatim order

"The name should be left empty so that the original episode names are automatically used."

This probably shouldn't apply to merged episodes when the original network marks it as a 2-parter / has two production codes, but actually broadcasted it as a single continuous episode.

It also wouldn't apply if we've changed it to yearly based as the episode number won't match up. For example, we don't want to keep the episode name as "Episode 2" [of Season 2020], if the verbatim order is "Episode 10" [of Season 2].

Country premiere

I assume you're going to update or remove the "It may currently only be used for the following countries" section haha


tnt wrote a month ago: 1

DId I get that right, and global premieres (Netflix, Prime Video, etc.) are not supported and alternate lists are limited to local networks/web channels only?

I see them in the list of web channels, but the policy explicitly excluding global channels.

In terms of usability: manually entering the season and episode number for alternate streaming/broadcast premiere seems redundant. If they are the same as in the world premiere, they should be inherited (same as the episode name), and manual entry should be required only when the alternate premiere has a different order of episodes.

Another idea: instead of naming the list "Streaming premiere", automatically substitute streaming with the name of web channel, i.e. "iBBC Player premiere". The same way it is done for the country or language.

@david wrote:
Made you a CC, that should do it, right?

yeah, it did the trick :)


gazza911 wrote a month ago: 2

It doesn't make sense to say both "indicate the (worldwide)" & "may only be used when the Web Channel is in the same country".

It is interesting, I've seen Netfix release series which they consider as exclusives.

They release it globally, except in the country of origin (where it actually premieres) - basically week by week straight after it airs in the original country. It's more common with Korean and some Japanese shows.

Under the draft policy, we'd not be allowed to add Netflix as the streaming premiere (though it could be flagged as the English language premiere).

Personally I think you should allow two streaming premieres:

1. From the country of origin
2. Global


tnt wrote a month ago: 1

Language premiere probably should be disabled (or hidden/removed) for the shows originally in English. At least while only English is allowed for language premiere.

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